delingma@THUNDER.LAKEHEADU.CA (11/16/90)
Are there any such beasts? If so, where do I look for one? If not, how much do the commercial versions go (low end IE level 1 or even level 0 versions) and what type of a system do I need to run them on? Thanks. Dan delingma@thunder.lakeheadu.ca QUIT
zhou@brazil.psych.purdue.edu (Albert Zhou) (11/18/90)
Mac's have high quality graphics, but unfortunately are mostly mono. Therefore I doubt people would like Mac smalltalk as much as on PC. Another problem is that while the total number of Mac users are much smaller than that of PC's, even smaller portion of those users are computer professionals or hobbyst. Even though ia Mac version Smalltalk is still welcome, if you can minimize the cost of developing it.
johnson@m.cs.uiuc.edu (11/18/90)
> Mac's have high quality graphics, but unfortunately are mostly mono. >Therefore I doubt people would like Mac smalltalk as much as on PC. > Another problem is that while the total number of Mac users are much >smaller than that of PC's, even smaller portion of those users are computer >professionals or hobbyst. This is a very strange statement, and indicates that the author knows very little about Smalltalk. The "son of the original Smalltalk" is ObjectWorks for Smalltalk from ParcPlace, which is derived from the Smalltalk-80 from Xerox. It is a very full-featured Smalltalk, which means that it takes at least 4 meg of memory to run version 2.5, though I think you can run 2.3 on a 2 meg Mac. (I don't think that you can buy 2.3 anymore.) There is a new version coming out from ParcPlace called 4.0. I don't know what happened to version 3. I don't know how much memory it takes. ParcPlace Smalltalk runs on 386 machines, Unix machines of various sorts, and Macs. Version 4.0 takes better advantage of the native windowing system than earlier versions. In particular, it runs under X. None of the earlier versions of ParcPlace Smalltalk had decent color. 4.0 is supposed to have good color support. I have a Tektronix 4319 with color Smalltalk that is very, very nice, but I don't think those machines are being made anymore, and in any case it isn't ParcPlace Smalltalk. Thus, most users of Smalltalk-80 couldn't make much use of a color display. While I am on the topic, the major problem with ParcPlace Smalltalk is that it is so expensive. 2.5 is not that expensive; around $500 for the Mac. However, 4.0 is on the order of $3000, though there are site licenses and there might even be a way for individuals to get a special deal. ParcPlace provides a VERY good deal for schools. In my opinion, every school that is the least interested in Smalltalk-80 should sign up for their site license program. In conclusion, ParcPlace Smalltalk is very high quality, but also very expensive. ParcPlace is not the only company selling Smalltalk. Digitalk started out selling a version for the PC and has now has at least four versions. Their OS/2 version is very popular among people using Smalltalk to develop applications for resale. Digitalk has a Mac version that you can buy for less than $200 through mail order houses. It doesn't have as many built-in classes as ParcPlace Smalltalk, but then it doesn't take as much memory, either. In general, Digitalk Smalltalks are designed to look just like other applications on their platform. Thus, Smalltalk/V Mac looks like Mac applications, Smalltalk/V-PM looks like OS/2 applications under the PM, etc. The downside of this is that programs are not usually portable from one version of Digitalk Smalltalk to another. On the other hand, ParcPlace Smalltalk is almost 100% portable from one machine to another, but all programs look the same. What we would like is a system where programs are portable but they adapt the look-and-feel of each system that they are ported to. Unfortunately, this is still a research topic. There is a public domain Smalltalk. (Actually two, but Tiny Smalltalk seems to be overtaken by GNU Smalltalk). The GNU project has a version of Smalltalk that does not have graphics, though they are working on an X interface. There are a number of people working on it, and it is supposed to be evolving rapidly. I think that there is a Mac version, but it would have a text-only interface. I'm sure that the people working on it would love to have someone working on a better Mac interface. I've always been partial to the Smalltalk-80 family. I started off on Tektronix Smalltalk, which I still use a lot. However, I got a Mac II so that I could program in Smalltalk-80 at home, and started out with 2.3 from ParcPlace, eventually moving to 2.5. The University of Illinois has a site license, and there are probably 50-100 people on campus using ParcPlace Smalltalk on Macs, Suns, and 386 boxes. On the other hand, my guess is that Digitalk is actually ahead on the number of units sold, because their prices are a lot lower and they run on less expensive machines. Their quality has been steadily improving over the years and they are now very popular with OS/2 developers. In fact, they recently signed an agreement with IBM so that now IBM is promoting Smalltalk-V/PM for OS/2. My partiality towards Smalltalk-80 is as much because I am familiar with it as it is for any technical reason. Addresses: ParcPlace Systems, 1550 Plymouth Street, Mountain View CA 94043 800-822-7880, in California 415-691-6700 Digitalk Inc., 9841 Airport Blvd. Los Angeles CA 90045 800-922-8255, in California 213-645-1082