obrien@aero.aero.org (Michael O'Brien) (01/05/91)
In article <1991Jan4.004138.7013@ashtate>, tomr@ashtate (Tom Rombouts) writes: |>... |> So, with no intent of starting a holy war, a few questions.... Yeah, it's a religious discussion, all right. |> If Smalltalk really can provide such a dramatic boost in |> productivity, why does it not seem to be used much for commercial |> MS-DOS software development? Overhead? Royalties? Skill inertia |> by current programmers? Some of all of those things. There are two Smalltalk products for MS-DOS. One is from ParcPlace, and its cost has skyrocketed as they become more and more pleased with their product and target ever-larger corporations wanting ever more support for ever-bigger products. Not much of this makes it into the literature, or onto the net. They're pleased; we're not. That leaves Digitalk. It suffers some from a spare class library, perhaps more from incompatibility among platforms (an area where ParcPlace shines). Perhaps the biggest problem, though, is that the Smalltalk learning curve isn't a curve. It's more like walking up a gentle slope until you bump your nose on a mountain. It's all very pleasant until the time comes to actually write a real application, and you find you have to learn most of the class library before you can even begin to design the code. It can be brutal. My personal opinion is that this keeps a lot of people from learning Smalltalk. It seems to be less of a problem with C++, perhaps (paradoxically) because there is no standard class library for C++. Many folks just wind up creating their own. The last reason is that Smalltalk has always been perceived as a "closed" system which cannot call, or be called by, external programs. This is becoming less true (I myself use it via remote procedure calls all the time) but it's still a handicap compared to whipping up a quickie in C or C++ (though the latter also suffers some from either not having a class library, or requiring you to learn one...and there are several to choose from). |> Relating to the above, why is Smalltalk not used more for DP |> applications instead of 4GL's? Shouldn't there be a thriving |> after-market selling objects/classes tailored for specific |> vertical markets such as insurance, medical, legal, etc? Again, you'd think so. But 4GL's are usually already targeted at a specific application area, and Smalltalk is general-purpose. That means more work to get the same thing done. These are personal opinions; your mileage may vary. Please stay away from my vicinity so the incoming flames don't discommode your lifestyle. -- Mike O'Brien obrien@aerospace.aero.org
Paul.Regenhardt@p0.f500.n5000.z200.METRONET.ORG (Paul Regenhardt) (01/07/91)
Well, I'm still don't seem to be able to get a NETMAIL message out,
but I would like to answer some of the questions I've gotten so I've
written one long post to answer the NETMAIL I've recieved.
To: boulder!mace.cc.purdue.edu!nvi (Charles C. Allen)
Mr. Allen gave me a gentle reminder to my infamous quote ("I wish
Digitalk would put their Smalltalk up on something other then a PC"),
that Digitalk does indeed have a Mac version. Thanks for keeping me
honest....
To: boulder!cs.uiuc.edu!johnson (Ralph Johnson)
The main reason that I want to convert Smalltalk/V286 to another
language
is so that I can run my Smalltalk application on a VAX under VMS.
Anything
else is a secondary consideration. Your reserch does sound intriguing
and
I would like to hear more (so would everyone else most likely).
To: boulder!sybase.com!marc (I am Marc E. Strohwig) and
Tom Wisdom, Hewlett-Packard, Colorado Telecommunications Division
Both of you sent nearly identical queries about the Smalltalk PD code.
Anyone who is interested can send me a diskette in a self addressed
stamped envelope with a note attached asking for the code and I'll put
the information on the disk and mail it out to them (send it to:
Simulation Sciences inc., ATTN: Paul Regenhardt, 6000 E. Evans Ave.,
Bldg 3, Suite 201, Denver, CO 80222). As to "what's it all about?",
well...about a year ago I called up each of the local Smalltalk user
groups and asked them to ask there members to make a contribution of
Smalltalk code to the public domain. The idea was that one person in
the local groups would put everything together and then send it out to
me. In return I would put all of the parts together and send the
complete set back to them, which would then be sent to their members.
All in all it went pretty well and there were a number of neat ideas
and pretty cool toys. Probably more important was the conversations
that I had with each of the local groups. It seems that by themselves
each of the local groups were pretty small and lacked the "critical
mass" required to provide a really good user group. Which is why we
have started to found the International Smalltalk Association (Those
interested in joining should drop me a note with their mailing
address). Don't be surprised if you haven't heard about it yet, it's
just evolving and our first big issue is to start advertising
ourselves. Speaking of which, the Rocky Mountain (Denver area)
regional chapter will be meeting on January 17th at the above address
at 7:00).
Still Making Smalltalk in Denver --> Paul
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=============================================================================Paul.Regenhardt@p0.f500.n5000.z200.METRONET.ORG (Paul Regenhardt) (01/07/91)
I liked your anology on the Smalltalk learning curve "going gently
upslope until your nose hits a mountain". I "learned" by reading
through Digitalk's tutorial several times and then going to a course.
I remember approaching the course with great trepidation because I
knew I couldn't do anything with the language. I was a traditional
FORTRAN programmer, and although I understood the syntax, I couldn't
put two and two together. The course was great, they threw a few words
out at us, and then said, "okay, write a program to...". Shell shock!
But suddenly it all gelled for me, I still wasn't familiar with the
class library, but I had it figured out. Next thing you know it
was Damn the torpedoes, and full speed ahead!
I trained another two other guys in our office, neither of them seemed
to have the initial trials and tribulations that I had to go through.
Of course when I picked the book up I was working in a vaccuum, they
had me to answer the "why would you do this" questions. Once you learn
it, you hate to go back....
It's really to bad Digitalk only supports PC's and Mac's, and that
ParcPlace's version is so expensive. As to Digitalk being class poor,
it never stopped me. Our image at work is now 3 times the original
size...and we keep adding capabilities.
Paul Regenhardt
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Paul Regenhardt - via MetroNet node 200:5000/301
The Bohemia BBS System, Boulder Colorado (303)449-8946
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