kirchner@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Roger B. Kirchner) (12/23/90)
I am desperate to find a Common Lisp for my AI course at Carleton College starting in January. I had hoped that Franz would have an upgrade for current NeXT customers by now. But I wasn't too worried. I had expected that a saved image of Allegro CL would be sufficient. But it turns out to be more broken than I thought -- it won't load files. Has anyone compiled kcl or akcl? I just obtained the latest version of akcl from rascal.ics.utexas.edu, thinking that by now there might be code for installing it on a NeXT. No such luck. The following machines are supported, and NeXT is not among them. * hp300: Hp 350, 370 under HPUX. * mp386: intel 386 under System V (eg microport) * ps2_aix: ibm ps2 under aix * rios: Ibm risc 6000 under aix3. * rt_aix: ibm rt under aix release 2. * sgi4d: 4d version of silicon graphics * sgi: silicon graphics 3d versions * sun3-os4: sun3 under os 4.03, 4.1 * sun3: Sun 3 (motorola 68K) Sun OS 3. * sun4: Sun 4,(sparc) sparctations, sun os 4.03 or 4.1 * symmetry: sequent symmetry (386 chips) DYNIX-3.0.12+ * u370: IBM 370 (3090's) under AIX * vax: Vax under 4.3 bsd., also ultrix Would anyone like to take up the intellectual challenge of adapting akcl for the NeXT? It can't be too hard if users of all the above listed machines have done it. I would thank you and my students would thank you. It really is disappointing that Franz has decided to unbundle Allegro CL at least for academic customers, and to price it for the NeXT as if the NeXT were just another workstation. One can't blame them for wanting to make money from NeXT users. But will they be able to do it? Allegro CL is a great product and $1500 is a relative bargain -- commercial customers pay more than that for other machines. The problem is that a NeXT is not just another workstation. Can one imagine a company doing lisp development work on their existing workstations switching to do it on a NeXT? And why would a company initiate lisp development work on a NeXT? The payoff for commercial NeXT developers is in using IB. The only people using lisp on a NeXT are faculty and students using it for fun, for exploring ideas, for programming languages courses, for ai courses, for exploring music and other NeXT capabilities. Few of these users can justify paying (50% of) commercial prices for a lisp. The availability of Allegro CL on a NeXT has been one of the most exciting aspects of the NeXT. NeXt users haven't had to make do with a PD lisp but have been able to use a premier implementation. We have used it with pride. It has added great value to our NeXTs. The down side of having Allegro CL is that there hasn't been a need to port PD lisps such as ackl to the NeXT. That is a problem for me now. I wish that Franz would return to their earlier vision for Allegro CL on the NeXT. Why did they bundle it with the original NeXT? I thought it was to encourage the use of lisp as a major development among students who would later want to use lisp in commercial settings and naturally want to use commercial versions of Allegro CL. I feel good that we will be getting upgrades from Franz for our fifteen '030 cubes. But I feel bad that most future NeXT academic customers won't have Allegro CL at all. If you have already gotten akcl running on a NeXT or can get it running, please let me know. Thanks. Roger Kirchner rkirchne@mathcs.carleton.edu
hodges@toaster.SFSU.EDU (John Hodges) (12/28/90)
In article <1990Dec22.225150.20135@cs.umn.edu> kirchner@umn-cs.cs.umn.edu (Roger B. Kirchner) writes: >I am desperate to find a Common Lisp for my AI course at Carleton >College starting in January. I had hoped that Franz would have an >upgrade for current NeXT customers by now. But I wasn't too worried. >I had expected that a saved image of Allegro CL would be sufficient. >But it turns out to be more broken than I thought -- it won't load >files. Some time back someone mentioned that T had been ported to the NeXT and I grabbed it off of whatever ftp site they selected. I have not untared it yet, but suppose that it works. Of course, kcl or akcl would be a common lisp flavor other than Franz, but if you need a lisp, then this is A way to go. Of course, you may NEED to stay with OS version 1.0 for another term... As for Franz and NeXT, I think that you really have to place the LACK OF FORESIGHT on NeXT. Franz, I think they will readily agree, would LOVE to have CL still bundled with the NeXT. Unfortunately, we have seen Jobs already moving away from his committment to academic institutions, and the first spear throw was to withdraw support for CL. There is no question that CL was one of the selling points, maybe the only one in retrospect, which has kept my interest, so I am pissed in a very strong way. But I do not see NeXT caring much what I think, or what you or anyone else on this forum thinks. When they want our business, then we will see CL bundled with the platform once again, or at least a good pricing arrangement for CL. As for Franz, well I have already posted my lament about their upgrade policy. For those of us with networked machines, the upgrade path is survivable. For those individuals who have purchased the NeXT as a home computer, the upgrade policy is fucked, intended for large instituitions and not at all for single owners. To this end, I say get on Franz' case, and do it VERY vocally, as they are a small company that CAN be hurt by public opinion (NeXT appears to think that they are not a small company, and this is probably going to be a big mistake for them in the long run). Much luck to you, and to all of us in this matter. Jack Hodges, SFSU