[comp.lang.c] MSC 4.0 SALE

jnk@sfsup.UUCP (11/18/87)

	!!!!!  SALE  !!!!!

	Microsoft 'C' Compiler V4.0

	1:  Compiler with original diskettes.
	2:  All manuals (in excellent condition).
	3:  Includes CodeView(tm).

	Asking   >>>>> $99 <<<<< + shipping.

	(201) 522-6494 between 8:30 and 4:30 EST
		Joe Klepach

mallett@cg-atla.UUCP (Bruce Mallett X5267) (11/20/87)

I have seen a number of "MSC 4.0 for sale" articles recently.  Is this
really legal?  I assume that these are for sale because the owner has
upgraded to 5.0.  My understanding of the license is that it covers
that one copy and an upgrade is an enhancement to that one license.


					BAM!!

				... decvax!cg-atla!mallett

-- 

dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) (11/22/87)

In article <1116@cg-atla.UUCP> mallett@cg-atla.UUCP (Bruce Mallett X5267) 
writes:
>I have seen a number of "MSC 4.0 for sale" articles recently.  Is this
>really legal?  I assume that these are for sale because the owner has
>upgraded to 5.0.  My understanding of the license is that it covers
>that one copy and an upgrade is an enhancement to that one license.

However, shrink-wrap licenses have no legal validity, therefore there
was no license to begin with and only copyright law governs use.  If as
a condition to obtaining a discount on version 5.0 you agreed to
destroy all copies of version 4.0, you indeed cannot sell it legally.
If you didn't, I see no reason why you can't sell the old version.

Consider buying an encyclopedia.  The publisher encloses a coupon that
lets you get the next updated edition at a discount.  When you get the
new edition, can you not sell the old one?  (Hint:  this is a
rhetorical question.)
-- 
Rahul Dhesi         UUCP:  <backbones>!{iuvax,pur-ee,uunet}!bsu-cs!dhesi

brad@looking.UUCP (11/23/87)

In article <1568@bsu-cs.UUCP> dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) writes:
>
>However, shrink-wrap licenses have no legal validity, therefore there
>was no license to begin with and only copyright law governs use.  If as
>a condition to obtaining a discount on version 5.0 you agreed to
>destroy all copies of version 4.0, you indeed cannot sell it legally.
>If you didn't, I see no reason why you can't sell the old version.

Holy rationalizations Batman!

If you order an upgrade to a piece of software, it is very clear that
you are, of your own free will, paying for an addition to software you
previously paid for, and not a new copy.

By paying for an upgrade you are stating that it *is* an upgrade.
Unless you can claim ignorance of what a software upgrade is expected to be,
this is a contract, even if it isn't written down.

You are both morally and in my opinion, legally bound not to sell what you
have of the previous release.

If you disagree with this, send Microsoft the upgrade fee with a little note
saying, "this payment comes with the understanding that I'm buying a completely
new copy, and that I'm free to do with the old one what I will."  Guess what
they'll say.
>
>Consider buying an encyclopedia.  The publisher encloses a coupon that
>lets you get the next updated edition at a discount.  When you get the
>new edition, can you not sell the old one?  (Hint:  this is a
>rhetorical question.)

A lot of differences here.  The coupon is included with the first encloypedia,
which means that as part of the package, you are purchasing a right to buy
the next edition at a reduced price.  Or it could simply be an incentive on
their part to get previous customers to repeat.

Again, it all depends on the nature of your agreement with the copyright
holder.  In the book case, the publisher probably feels they really are
selling two copies.

In the software case, everybody (including you) knows that the vendor does
not feel it is selling two distinct licences, and you'll have a hard time
convincing people that you believed otherwise.

Software companies work hard to produce updates that (except for Borland) get
sold at a very favourable cost.  Do we have to search for ways to cheat them?
-- 
Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

toma@tekgvs.TEK.COM (Tom Almy) (11/24/87)

In article <1568@bsu-cs.UUCP> dhesi@bsu-cs.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) writes:
<In article <1116@cg-atla.UUCP> mallett@cg-atla.UUCP (Bruce Mallett X5267) 
<writes:
<<I have seen a number of "MSC 4.0 for sale" articles recently.  Is this
<<really legal?  I assume that these are for sale because the owner has
<<upgraded to 5.0.  My understanding of the license is that it covers
<<that one copy and an upgrade is an enhancement to that one license.
<
<However, shrink-wrap licenses have no legal validity, therefore there
<was no license to begin with and only copyright law governs use.  If as
<a condition to obtaining a discount on version 5.0 you agreed to
<destroy all copies of version 4.0, you indeed cannot sell it legally.
<If you didn't, I see no reason why you can't sell the old version.
<
Ah, but you are not buying the new version at a discount, you are buying
an upgrade for an older version.

I developed a software product for which upgrades are free via modem.
Now if you bought my product (a Forth compiler) and took advantage of
a free upgrade, would you feel that you could give the old version away,
or sell it?  I certainly hope not!  Yet what is the difference if a company
decides to charge for the revision?  Just because you paid additional
money and get a new manual doesn't mean you have two licensed copies.
Remember these companies don't have to offer an upgrade deal at all.

Tom Almy
toma@tekgvs.TEK.COM

rps@homxc.UUCP (R.SHARPLES) (11/24/87)

In article <1150@looking.UUCP>, brad@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
> If you order an upgrade to a piece of software, it is very clear that
> you are, of your own free will, paying for an addition to software you
> previously paid for, and not a new copy.
> 
> By paying for an upgrade you are stating that it *is* an upgrade.
> Unless you can claim ignorance of what a software upgrade is expected to be,
> this is a contract, even if it isn't written down.
> 
> You are both morally and in my opinion, legally bound not to sell what you
> have of the previous release.
> 
> >
> >Consider buying an encyclopedia.  The publisher encloses a coupon that
> >lets you get the next updated edition at a discount.  When you get the
> >new edition, can you not sell the old one?  (Hint:  this is a
> >rhetorical question.)
> 
> A lot of differences here.  The coupon is included with the first encloypedia,
> which means that as part of the package, you are purchasing a right to buy
> the next edition at a reduced price.  Or it could simply be an incentive on
> their part to get previous customers to repeat.
> 
...
> Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

I believe that the if the manufacturer was selling you an upgrade at
a reduced price then it should be literally that!  It should not include
any material that has not changed since the last release, e.g. if an
include library hasn't changed it should not be re-issued.  Same with the
manual pages, etc..  However, it is much easier for Microsoft to make
up one version of C 5.0 for new customers and upgrades, so they send
current users duplicates of a large amount of the material.

I think the fact that MS does NOT require you to return the old 
disks/manuals OR destroy the old disks/manuals OR sign anything
saying that you may not sell/lend/give them to someone else, means
that you may do as you wish.  It is up to MS to protect these rights
(if they exist) if they want to use them.  

I believe the reason MS offers C 5.0 to a C 4.0 customer for a cheap
price is to promote brand loyality and prevent the market from drying up 
just prior to release of a new version.  

BTW - a quick glance at the MS C license says nothing about upgrades
and says that you are allowed to transfer the product to a third party
if that third party agrees to the terms of the license.

Russ Sharples
homxc!rps

NOTE:

The above in NO WAY reflects the opinions of AT&T.
These opinions are my own and the results of un-scientific and 
highly irregular analysis methods.