levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (04/18/88)
In article <1988Apr16.223658.15649@utzoo.uucp>, henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: # > <>...And I know of no language, with the possible exception of Ada, that is # > <>rich enough in control structures to always have an elegant and # > <>efficient alternative to using a goto. # > # > Check out BLISS... # # Don't forget the Unix shell. (The standard one, not the silly thing from # Berkeley.) To use some of your prior terminology, it is "amusing" to "note" that the Bourne shell supports `break n'. Without a goto and (until System V) without functions, this is the only way to leave nested loops without having to introduce extraneous variables. In an interpreted language like sh, extraneous variables really cost. It is also "amusing" to "note" that DEC has done right well with its DCL which has yet to support a loop constructor of any kind other than GOTO. VMS? I hear you say? What's THAT?!?!? -- |------------Dan Levy------------| Path: ..!{akgua,homxb,ihnp4,ltuxa,mvuxa, | an Engihacker @ | <most AT&T machines>}!ttrdc!ttrda!levy | AT&T Data Systems Group | Disclaimer? Huh? What disclaimer??? |--------Skokie, Illinois--------|
oz@yunexus.UUCP (Ozan Yigit) (04/20/88)
In article <2592@ttrdc.UUCP> levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) writes: > >It is also "amusing" to "note" that DEC has done right well with its DCL which >has yet to support a loop constructor of any kind other than GOTO. VMS? I >hear you say? What's THAT?!?!? > This above must be a massive joke. You obviously have never used DCL!! A year after starting to suffer DCL-Goto-pain-in-the-rear [even prep-h did not help], I adopted a C version of ratfor translator on top of DCL (A later version of that translator was posted to comp.sources.unix... it should take you about a day to make it generate DCL... try it :-)), so we can be rid of GOTOs. That was 5 years ago. DEC's VMS/DCL brain-damage was probably the most backward thing ever inflicted [in the name of RSX11 compatibility no less] on computing professionals. [But than, that is DEC... they wrote a stream-oriented programmable filter language, and when I asked its designers about AWK, I got blank stares... They did not know what it was...] Yes... This is *very amusing* !!! oz -- ... and they will all Usenet: [decvax|ihnp4]!utzoo!yunexus!oz bite the dust ... .......!uunet!mnetor!yunexus!oz comprehensively. ... Bitnet: oz@[yusol|yulibra|yuyetti] Archbishop Tutu Phonet: +1 416 736-5257 x 3976
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (04/20/88)
> ... it is "amusing" to "note" that the > Bourne shell supports `break n'... Now, quickly, name three people who've ever actually used it. Certainly we haven't, and we've got thousands of lines of shell applications. > It is also "amusing" to "note" that DEC has done right well with its DCL which > has yet to support a loop constructor of any kind other than GOTO. If you consider marketing success a sign of technical merit, I trust you are using an ASR33 connected to a VAX 730 running VMS on RL01 disks to write assembler code for an IBM PC running MSDOS? ;-) -- "Noalias must go. This is | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology non-negotiable." --DMR | {ihnp4,decvax,uunet!mnetor}!utzoo!henry
levy@ttrdc.UUCP (Daniel R. Levy) (04/22/88)
In article <1988Apr20.072731.461@utzoo.uucp>, henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: # # > It is also "amusing" to "note" that DEC has done right well with its DCL which # > has yet to support a loop constructor of any kind other than GOTO. # # If you consider marketing success a sign of technical merit, I trust you are # using an ASR33 connected to a VAX 730 running VMS on RL01 disks to write # assembler code for an IBM PC running MSDOS? ;-) Your feeble attempt at a humorous counterexample is, well, unlaughable. The worst/slowest of the items you mention (the ASR33 and the VAX 730) have next to no share of the market today. VMS and big VAXEN are successes NOW in TECHNICAL MARKETS. The market HAS spoken, not always in the way I'd hope (rah rah, UNIX _OPERATING SYSTEM_) but it somehow gets what it needs. It is cruelly indifferent to technical stuffed-shirtness. All it wants is RELIABLE RESULTS and if by cracky DCL with GOTOs can contribute to VMS's ability to produce reliable results, it sells! I'm sure DEC would cry (all the way to the bank) at your criticisms. It is also amusing to note that the brightest, brainiest, elitest technical innovation means nothing, nada, zilch, until it finds a use. -- |------------Dan Levy------------| Path: ihnp4,<most AT&T machines>!ttrdc!levy | AT&T | I'm not a real hacker, but I play one on | Data Systems Group | USENET. If you think that AT&T endorses |--------Skokie, Illinois--------| my opinions, I've a nice bridge to sell ya.