JPeters.HCRC@HI-MULTICS@sri-unix.UUCP (07/14/83)
please delete me from this list Thanks John Peters
MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA@sri-unix.UUCP (07/22/83)
From: Mike Peeler <MDP@SU-SCORE.ARPA>
Dear /amqueue (Anne Marie Quint),
Hold your horses! Myths always borrow from the existing
body of mythology. This was the central theme of a course
on Tolkien I took, so it must be true, right? Seriously,
all folk tales draw from a similar repertoire of characters
and plots--you might like to look up one of the books we
used, titled The Morphology of the Folk Tale. Think about
it. Shakespeare did not exactly come up with the story of
Romeo and Juliet all by himself--we appreciate him for his
craftsmanship, not for his originality. I would not say
that parallels between the works of different authors is a
sure sign of evil. When I read Donaldson, I had fears that
it would be a cheap rip-off of Tolkien, but I soon felt
these fears had been allayed.
To get more particular: I do see the parallel between
the Ranyhyn and the Ramen, although the former are the
beasts and the latter the riders. Were they stolen, er,
borrowed? I'd say, yes, probably. If borrowing like this
occurred throughout the work, I'd call it damning. So what
about the ravers and the balrogs? Well, gee, aren't the
balrogs just like a lot of other fairy tale demons? Sauron
has the Palantir, and can keep track of the Ring like Foul
kept track of Covenant through his boots--and TV cops have
electronic tracking devices. It is not as if these ideas
were so original that Tolkien can be thought of as having
exclusive rights on them in any sense. As for "orcrest",
Donaldson's word for Earthstone, being taken directly from
"orc", the word for "heart" in Quenya, the language of the
High Elves, I have my doubts. I had always understood it as
"or-crest", "or" being a romantic-tongue root for gold.
I think I still have a book on Elvish lying around in my
closet. If you like, I can go look up the title for you.
Cheers,
Mike
-------Gds%MIT-XX@sri-unix.UUCP (07/26/83)
From: Greg Skinner <Gds@MIT-XX>
Subject: Thomas Covenant
I hate to disillusion people, but Stephen Donaldson took A LOT
from Tolkien. There is the people from whom Gandalf takes a prize
horse (I can't remember their name); Covenant takes one of the Ranyhyn
from the Ramen. Ravers are like mobile Balrogs. Sauron has the
Palantir, and can keep track of the Ring like Foul kept track of
Covenant through his boots. And at least one word (that I could find)
is taken directly from Quenya, the language of the High Elves: "orc"
is Quenya for "heart"; "orcrest" is the word for Earthstone.
I had read the First Thomas Covenant trilogy before I read LotR,
and liked it a lot. Then I read the Ring trilogy and realized how much
was snarfed. I don't know enough Quenya to do a serious study of the
elements of the language that Donaldson took, but I think that was the
most unfair thing he did.
I agree totally. The Ranyhyn reminded me of the Mearas (Horses of
Rohan) too. The griffin seems to be what the Nazgul rode (winged
beasts).
One correction. Sauron couldn't actually locate Frodo with the
palantir. (Or he didn't try.) Instead, he used the palantir to
deceive Denethor, to communicate with Saruman in Orthanc and to survey
his armies. I don't believe he could actually locate the Ring, or he
would have seen it in Cirith Ungol or somewhere between there and
Mount Doom.
-------mat@hou5e.UUCP (M Terribile) (07/27/83)
One correction. Sauron couldn't actually locate Frodo with the palantir. (Or he didn't try.) Instead, he used the palantir to deceive Denethor, to communicate with Saruman in Orthanc and to survey his armies. I don't believe he could actually locate the Ring, or he would have seen it in Cirith Ungol or somewhere between there and Mount Doom. ------- I believe that Gandalf makes it quite clear that Sauron, if he only looked, would see the Ring moving back into his own land. It is for this reason that Aragorn looks into the Palintir; it is for this reason that Gandalf and Aragorn march hopelessly right to the gates of the Dark Lord, vastly outnumbered and facing a fortress. Saurons attention MUST at all costs be drawn westward. When Frodo put the Ring on, the Lidless Eye was drawn to him immediately. The Palintir could have seen the Ring only if it had ben brought before that stone. Is JRRT really SciFi? Mark Terribile Duke of deNet