indra@amdcad.AMD.COM (Indra Singhal) (09/09/88)
I have been a casual reader of Dr. Dobbs Journal of Software Tools
for some time now. When I saw a recent issue of DDJ I noticed that
the C Chest column was missing. I wondered but did not think too
much about it - until I had the opportunity to meet Mr Allen Holub
in person at a UC Berkeley gathering.
While speaking to him I found out that the disappearance of
the C-Chest had more to it than the casual (or even regular) reader
would know. I did not think Mr Holub got a fair shake from DDJ so
I offered to post his final column for him.
What follows are his own words, unedited. Like he says, feel
free to distribute it. The opinions expressed are Mr Holubs and do
not have any connection with me nor with my employers. Please treat it
as such.
--
Indra K. Singhal
{ucbvax,decwrl,allegra}!amdcad!indra
indra@amdcad.AMD.COM
----------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 88 17:12:18 PDT
From: holub@violet.Berkeley.EDU
Indra, Here's the editorial that I promised you at the Extension seminar.
I hope you find it entertaining. Feel free to spread it around.
-Allen
The following editorial was supposed to appear in the August Dr. Dobbs
Journal. It did not. I'll let you read it and then make a few more comments.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Running Light
Allen Holub
This month's issue contains the last C Chest column. The decision to terminate
the column was made over my objections, and without any reason given to me.
In fact, the decision was so precipitous that two C Chests that I've already
written will not appear in DDJ. It's a decision that I can't say I'm very
happy about. I can only conjecture about the reasons for the termination,
so this editorial will discuss the economics of the publishing business.
You can draw your own conclusions.
You may not have know it, but you, the reader, are a commodity that a
magazine sells to its advertisers. A magazine, in the mind of a publisher,
exists only as a vehicle for advertisements, and it is in the interests of
the publisher to maximize the amount of advertisements. Enough editorial
material must be presented so that you'll buy the magazine, but that's the
only purpose of this material. (In fact, you may have noticed that the
percentage of DDJ that's devoted to advertisements has been getting larger
and larger.) In a programming magazine, the other thing that's for sale is
the code. The magazine can sell the code directly, or it can sell it indirectly
by giving it away in order to sell more magazines. Finally, it's in the
interests of the publisher to pay contributors as little as possible. A penny
saved is a penny earned.
How does all this relate to the C Chest? Well, first of all, the programs
in C Chest were significant (and useful) programs. Unfortunately, these
programs were sometimes relatively large (at least by magazine standards),
and the space used for listings can not be used for advertisements. The fact
that looking at significant programs is a useful exercise, even if you're
not going to use the program itself, is immaterial. Similarly, the fact that
a large program may contain many useful subroutines is not germane.
Your needs don't count, as long as you continue to buy DDJ and read the ads.
Another economic issue is payment to the author. It takes time to write a
program. I was paid for the time it took to write an article, but the code
was developed on my own time for all practical purposes. Since I have to eat,
I would occasionally sell a program for a small amount of money (usually
$20-$30) in order to supplement the small amount I was paid by the magazine.
It was this supplementary money that made it possible to give you the quality
of code that I did. The printed listings were there for the majority of you,
who didn't need an entire program. The listings were available electronically
(often for less than the download costs) if you didn't want to type. Everybody
benefited. Money that I get by selling my own code, however, is money that
doesn't go into the coffers of M&T publishing, and the publisher is evidently
unwilling to pay for the development time required for even a small program
--at least that option was never presented to me.
As I said, you can draw your own conclusions. I am sorry to be giving
up the C Chest. It was fun. I especially enjoyed sharing my own code with you
and I hope that the programs were as useful to you as they were to myself.
I'm truly sorry to go. As they say in the village, "be seeing you."
---------------------------------------------------------------
... end of editorial. I want to add some more comments though:
First, DDJ is no longer a magazine "by" programmers. There was
a time when programmers ran the magazine, but the people now in charge
are just MBA's with little or no real interest in programming or programmers
other than exploiting them to make a buck. The current publisher is an ex ad
man. As such, they have no real understanding of what's important to a
programmer, or what a useful program even looks like. For example, the last
(and unprinted C Chest) was a troff preprocessor that let you create drawings
with a WYSIWYG drafting program on an IBM-PC (it generates troff primitives that
could be imbedded in any troff document). Anyone who uses troff (and tries to
use PIC) immediateley understands how useful this program is, and a significant
percentage of DDJ's readers are Unix users. Moreover, as usual, there were
a lot of useful parts to the program--subroutines that would be useful in
many applications other than troff preprocessors. The editor didn't know
what he was looking at, however.
You can really see the problem in the column that replaced C Chest. It is
written by someone who, by his own admission, doesn't know the C language.
He spent most of the first column talking about pretty basic stuff that's
of little interest to someone who's as technically competant as most of DDJ's
readers. Since the current editor, Jon Erickson, has said publicly (on
CompuServe among other places) that he is not downgrading the quality of the
magazine, I can only surmize that he doesn't know enough to recognize quality
(or lack thereof) when he sees it.
I realize that the foregoing sounds bitter, but I'm pretty bitter about what
happended. I was fired in the sleazyest possible manner, for no reason and
without notice. (In fact, Ericson had had lunch with me a week earlier, and
he was telling me how much of an asset the C Chest was for DDJ, he then
turned around and fired me the next week without a word of explanation).
Moreover, my readers were not told what happened---quite the contrary: the
last paragraphs of the new column (that replaced C Chest) imply that I left the
magazine on good terms and that I just wanted to move on to other things.
To my mind, this is an outright lie. It's not fair to me and it's not fair to
you, but it seems indicative of the level of honesty that's at work. It seems
likely that Erickson thought that if enough people found out what really
went on, that subscriptions might drop. To that end, please spread the word
about what happened. Your welcome to distribute this letter as you see fit.
-Allen Holubkramer@bionette.CS.ORST.EDU (Jack Kramer - CMBL) (09/09/88)
I, and I hope many others stopped reading DDJ when they started publishing articles only as advertisements for the sale of the described code. I find the niche that they previously filled more than adequately taken over by Computer Language and Byte. I also now apolgize to Allen since I attributed much of the direction taken on charging for published code mistakenly to him.
limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) (09/09/88)
In article <6375@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> kramer@bionette.CS.ORST.EDU (Jack Kramer - CMBL) writes: > I, and I hope many others stopped reading DDJ when they started publishing > articles only as advertisements for the sale of the described code. I find > the niche that they previously filled more than adequately taken over by > Computer Language and Byte. I also now apolgize to Allen since I attributed > much of the direction taken on charging for published code mistakenly to him. Hmmm... Byte lost it's good "techie-edge" and became a hardware/software review magazine. Well, they also have their benchmarks... but I don't have too much respect for benchmarks. (My new benchmark is an infinite loop. So far all recorded timings have been marked with a footnote stating "Took so long that I just aborted it". I think it says about as much about a CPU as many of the older benchmarks around :-) ) Hmmm... DDJ lost it's good "techie-edge" and became a programer's catalog. Hmmm... I can name a couple others too. Hmmm... there aren't many left. The journal of the ACM is nice. Maybe I could start a magazine? Then in a couple years I can sell it to MBAs for a big profit and... oh... never mind. Tom (in a silly mood... sorry) -- Tom Limoncelli -- Drew University, Box 1060, Madison, NJ 07940 TLimonce@Drew.Bitnet -- limonce@pilot.njin.net -- VoiceMail (201)408-5389 Drew College of Liberal Arts: male/female ratio: 2:3 student/pc ratio: 1:1 "The opinions expressed are mine... just mine."
dean@violet.berkeley.edu (Dean Pentcheff) (09/09/88)
Even before this missive came through I had decided to let both my DDJ and PC Tech Journal subscriptions lapse. In the past year or two both of them slowly but surely became far less interesting. DDJ seemed to be spending more and more time on hyping !new! technologies and !new! methodologies, while reducing coverage of how to get interesting things done well with existing computers. PC Tech Journal has slowly gone from being a programmer's guide on getting the most out of the PC architecture to being a business system integrator and buyer's guide. Let's face it: programmers (especially non-full-time ones) don't rate squat with advertisers. What do we buy? A (one [1]) computer every five or so years, and maybe a compiler or operating system every couple of years. A systems integrator may put together a contract for a 100-machine LAN in a day. As a publisher, there's not much choice there, unless you feel like doing a public service for programmers. Unfortunately, I don't see much of a way around this problem. Suggestions, anyone? -Dean ----------------- Dean Pentcheff (dean@violet.berkeley.edu) ----------------- "A university is a place where people pay high prices for goods which they then proceed to leave on the counter when they go out of the store." Loren Eiseley
cdold@starfish.Convergent.COM (Clarence Dold) (09/09/88)
I used to read Dr Dobb's Journal from a subscription that someone else in the of the office had. Six months after he left, I decided that I missed the articles, and started my own subscription. The magazine has changed so much that I though my memory was amiss, that I was thinking of the wrong magazine. Even the 'C' issue wasn't what I remembered. ANYBODY ON STAFF AT DDJ READING THIS ??? But, I don't buy a lot of hardware... Nor do I buy a new compiler very often. -- Clarence A Dold - cdold@starfish.Convergent.COM (408) 435-5274 ...pyramid!ctnews!mitisft!professo!dold P.O.Box 6685, San Jose, CA 95150-6685
rich@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Richard Pettit) (09/10/88)
In case nobody noticed, you are currently reading the most comprehensive, open minded, engineer/programmer oriented magazine available in the world. Nope, no MBAs replacing important or useful information with advertisments here. If you want any of that, tell rn "g comp.newprod". Rich -- rich@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov
libes@cme-durer.ARPA (Don Libes) (09/10/88)
In article <22873@amdcad.AMD.COM> indra@amdcad.AMD.COM (Indra Singhal) writes: >I did not think Mr Holub got a fair shake from DDJ so I offered to post > his final column for him. > What follows are his own words, unedited. C'mon. This is not fair to give Holub a platform without giving DDJ a chance. I was quite curious, myself, about this and a friend of mine called both Holub and the editor of DDJ. Needless to say DDJ told a completely opposite story than Allen. I'm not going to repeat it. Don't even mail me. My point is, there are two sides to every story. Frankly, at this point I don't believe everything that either DDJ and Holub say. Anyone who read Holub's last column will realize that DDJ would never print such a thing. Similarly, DDJ will never print their version of the story, because it would probably sound just as filled with enmity and twisted truths. I have no comment on the direction of DDJ. I have never subscribed to it. I've no connections with anyone at DDJ or Holub. Don Libes cme-durer.arpa ...!uunet!cme-durer!libes
jif@cup.portal.com (09/10/88)
I know that I had decided to let my subscription expire at the end of August because I was sick of reading through all the M&T ads that appeared in each issue, and in the flyer that comes with the magazine when you subscribe. It also irked me that one of the reasons that I had subscribed was that I was promised source code would be available on Compu$erve. Some of the trival stuff was, but most of the substantual code cost at lease $15. -Jim Foster Systems Programmer Automated Systems, Inc. (215) 646-7710
pcm@iwarpj.intel.com (Phil C. Miller) (09/10/88)
In article <22873@amdcad.AMD.COM>, indra@amdcad.AMD.COM (Indra Singhal) includes an editorial written by Allen Holub regarding his abrupt dismissal from Dr. Dobbs Journal of Software Tools. Allen's comments are, by his own admission, somewhat bitter. On the other hand, Allen makes some very valid criticisms of DDJoST. I feel compelled to comment in a similar manner. I have been a reader of Doctor Dobbs Journal for a long, long time, since the time when the magazine was all black and white and had things like Basic interpreters written in 8080 assembler. I remember when I first discovered DDJ and excitedly scrounged around in Byte shops in any major cities I visited, searching for back issues. I also remember when DDJ dropped the "Orthodontia" stuff and went to color covers. I also remember the editorial statement "don't worry though, we won't become just another glossy applications-oriented periodical", a snide reference to the metamorphasis of Byte magazine. Bullshit. Like Byte, DDJ *used* to print articles with a high level of technical content, with an emphasis on hobbyists and experimenters. I used to subscribe to Byte and DDJ, but I now subscribe to magazines which have filled the gap left by these two glossy applications-oriented periodicals. Allen Holub: >In fact, you may have noticed that the percentage of DDJ that's devoted >to advertisements has been getting larger and larger. You're goddamn right I have. I'm sorry that Allen got the shaft from DDJ. I hope he will come in contact with another magazine and continue to publish his fine articles. Phil Miller My vitriolic comments are not representative of my employer's opinions.
dean@violet.berkeley.edu (Dean Pentcheff) (09/10/88)
In response to my recent whine to the net regarding the lack of micro
technical journals, I received the following:
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 88 12:48:07 PDT
From: eckel@sperm.ocean.washington.edu (Bruce Eckel)
To: dean@violet.berkeley.edu
Subject: Magazines
Subscribe to Micro Cornucopia, the micro technical journal!
It still has that "old techie flavor." Dial 1-800-888-8087.
Please post this to the net, as my connection is bad. Thanks.
Bruce Eckel
School of Oceanography, WB-10
University of Washington, Seattle, WA, 98195
arpanet: eckel@sperm.ocean.washington.edu
UUCP: uw-beaver!sperm.ocean.washington.edu!eckel
bitnet: eckel%sperm.ocean.washington.edu@UWAVM
-----------------
Dean Pentcheff (dean@violet.berkeley.edu)
-----------------
"A university is a place where people pay high prices for goods which they then
proceed to leave on the counter when they go out of the store." Loren Eiseleyegs@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Schnoebelen) (09/11/88)
In article <14102@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> dean@violet.berkeley.edu (Dean Pentcheff) writes: >In response to my recent whine to the net regarding the lack of micro >technical journals, I received the following: > > Date: Fri, 9 Sep 88 12:48:07 PDT > From: eckel@sperm.ocean.washington.edu (Bruce Eckel) > To: dean@violet.berkeley.edu > Subject: Magazines > > Subscribe to Micro Cornucopia, the micro technical journal! > It still has that "old techie flavor." Dial 1-800-888-8087. The list of Programming Magazines that I subscribe to ( in order of reading were they to all arrive on the same day ) Micro Cornucopia Programmers Journal ( 503-747-0800 ) Micro Systems Journal ( 800-321-3333 ) DDJ & Computer Language. ( interesting, those were the 1st 2 I subscribed to, now the least often read.... ) ( plus UnixWorld and Unix Review, and even Byte, when it manages to show up :-) Eric Schnoebelen John W. Bridges & Associates, Inc. Lewisville, Tx u-word!egs@killer.dallas.tx.us
jax@well.UUCP (Jack J. Woehr) (09/11/88)
{{{ Well, good riddance! Maybe now we can expand Martin
Tracy's Forth column! }}} :-)
Seriously, DDJ is really gettin out of hand. The only thing that
is reminiscent of Ye Goode Olde Dayes is Swaine's beard.
I puke slightly when I see these crewcut types lining the pages
bragging how their new Opti-Prick C^3 compiler gets them laid
more often by their project supervisor.
Every month the mag comes shrink wrapped with enough ads to
choke a trash compacter.
Not only THAT , but they noodged me so much when my subscription was
about to expire that i paid them *twice* by mistake and it has been a
*month* since they agreed to a refund and have yet to send me a check. In
fact they had the gall to tell me to wait *two more months* for my refund!
*******
jax@well I still got my beard and long hair.
jax@chariot What's YOUR excuse?
JAX on GEnietps@chem.ucsd.edu (Tom Stockfisch) (09/11/88)
In article <3792@omepd> pcm@iwarpj.UUCP (Phil C. Miller) writes: >I used to subscribe to Byte >and DDJ, but I now subscribe to magazines which have filled the gap left by >these two glossy applications-oriented periodicals. So what do you subscribe to now (besides comp.lang.c)? -- || Tom Stockfisch, UCSD Chemistry tps@chem.ucsd.edu
jinli@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu (jin li) (09/11/88)
For a while, DDJ was at the top of my reading list. I almost always read the C-Chest column first. Unfortunately, DDJ has droped the C-Chest. So, naturely it is no longer on my reading list! Suggestion: Maybe we can start an on-line C-Chest column. -- --- Jin jinli@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu
mlinar@eve.usc.edu (Mitch Mlinar) (09/11/88)
In article <636@muffin.cme-durer.ARPA> libes@cme-durer.arpa (Don Libes) writes: >I was quite curious, myself, about this and a friend of mine called >both Holub and the editor of DDJ. Needless to say DDJ told a >completely opposite story than Allen. I'm not going to repeat it. >Don't even mail me. My point is, there are two sides to every story. >Frankly, at this point I don't believe everything that either DDJ and >Holub say. > I agree. But ... >Anyone who read Holub's last column will realize that DDJ would never >print such a thing. Similarly, DDJ will never print their version of >the story, because it would probably sound just as filled with enmity >and twisted truths. Again, I agree that no magazine would print an article like that or a rebuttal to it, either. Their objective is to do this as low key as possible, so as not to offend any readers and keep discussion to a minimum. With this posting, you are actually adding FUEL to this now PUBLIC situtation by saying "I know the OTHER side of the story. But I am not going to tell you, so there." The *logical* thing for you to do would have been to either: (1) post a summary of the DDJ response or (2) never have posted to begin with. Yes, I feel *so* much better now that I know there are two sides to every story. That will certainly be a shock to us dumb net users; combine that with the *actual* rebuttal would certainly give us all coronaries.... -Mitch
wfp@dasys1.UUCP (William Phillips) (09/11/88)
In article <636@muffin.cme-durer.ARPA> libes@cme-durer.arpa (Don Libes) writes: >In article <22873@amdcad.AMD.COM> indra@amdcad.AMD.COM (Indra Singhal) writes: >>I did not think Mr Holub got a fair shake from DDJ so I offered to post >> his final column for him. ...... >C'mon. This is not fair to give Holub a platform without giving DDJ a >chance. ...... >I have no comment on the direction of DDJ. I have never subscribed to >it. I've no connections with anyone at DDJ or Holub. ^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ > >Don Libes cme-durer.arpa ...!uunet!cme-durer!libes Well, now. Unless I'm very much mistaken (in which case I offer my sincere apologies and retract this statement), this is the same Don Libes who writes an excellent regular column called "The C Forum" in _Micro/Systems Journal_ (which is one of the few remaining decent small computer tech magazines). Mr Libes (whose dad is the Founder and Editor of _MSJ_) is listed in the masthead as one of two technical editors . What I find distressing here is the fact (not mentioned by Mr Libes) that there is clearly a connection between him and _DDJ_, specifically that _DDJ_ and _MSJ_ are both publications of M&T Publishing Inc., and, while their editorial departments are (I think -- I _hope_) totally separate, a quick perusal of the mastheads of the two journals reveals that they share Production, Circulation and Administration departments, though, curiously, not Advertising. I have absolutely nothing against Mr Libes, who has been an active contributor to the microcomputing community at least since he was in his early teens, but I do like to keep facts straight and I feel his disclaimer is disingenuous. -- William Phillips {allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri\ Big Electric Cat Public Unix {bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wfp New York, NY, USA !!! JUST SAY "NO" TO OS/2 !!!
wfp@dasys1.UUCP (William Phillips) (09/11/88)
I wonder if anyone remebers who actually _owns_ _DDJ_.
The answer is in the tiny print in the masthead:
_DDJ_ is published under license from People's Computer Company,
2862 Bishop Dr., Suite 107, San Ramon, CA 95483, a nonprofit
corporation.
I wonder what the terms of the license are. Specifically, I wonder if
PCC has the ability to move _DDJ_ to a different publisher which might
(at least for a time :-) bring it back on course. I wonder if they care.
Hmmmmmm?
Naaaaaah.
--
William Phillips {allegra,philabs,cmcl2}!phri\
Big Electric Cat Public Unix {bellcore,cmcl2}!cucard!dasys1!wfp
New York, NY, USA !!! JUST SAY "NO" TO OS/2 !!!jcb@loral.UUCP (Jay C. Bowden) (09/11/88)
In article <3792@omepd> pcm@iwarpj.UUCP (Phil C. Miller) writes: >In article <22873@amdcad.AMD.COM>, indra@amdcad.AMD.COM (Indra Singhal) > I used to subscribe to Byte >and DDJ, but I now subscribe to magazines which have filled the gap left by >these two glossy applications-oriented periodicals. Ditto. Also, Micro Cornucopia is the best alternate I know of right now, but it may be drifting towards the mean also... I hope not though. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jay Bowden, EE/Consultant; see also Bowden Engineering Currently contracted at Loral Instrumentation, San Diego {ucbvax, ittvax!dcdwest, akgua, decvax, ihnp4}!ucsd!loral!jcb
daveb@geac.UUCP (David Collier-Brown) (09/11/88)
One of the few remaining serious journals for the working programmer is MacTutor... This doesn't help Vax/Unix programmers like me a lot, but its still interesting reading. --dave -- David Collier-Brown. | yunexus!lethe!dave 78 Hillcrest Ave,. | He's so smart he's dumb. Willowdale, Ontario. | --Joyce C-B
mh@wlbr.EATON.COM (Mike Hoegeman) (09/12/88)
In article <2822@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> rich@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Richard Pettit) writes: >In case nobody noticed, you are currently reading the most comprehensive, >open minded, engineer/programmer oriented magazine available in the world. > >Nope, no MBAs replacing important or useful information with advertisments >here. If you want any of that, tell rn "g comp.newprod". > >Rich >-- >rich@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov Well said amigo!! Too bad these aforementioned MBA's who many times "manage" us know-nothing programmers (SORRY! I should say 'software engineer') want to know why we want to waste our time with usenet when we can just read their stacks of 'HyperWorld' type magazines instead. p.s. Hi Rich!! Mike Hoegeman -- mike@etn-wlv.eaton.com
elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) (09/12/88)
in article <636@muffin.cme-durer.ARPA>, libes@cme-durer.ARPA (Don Libes) says: > Anyone who read Holub's last column will realize that DDJ would never > print such a thing. Similarly, DDJ will never print their version of > the story, because it would probably sound just as filled with enmity > and twisted truths. This is the same DDJ that printed the GNU Manifesto? Sounds like the publishers of the magazine have gone gutless since then........~r I bet if Stallman had made his break 4 years later (now), DDJ would laugh at him and say "Publish THAT? And insult our advertisers?! You're kidding!" Once I considered subscribing to DDJ. Way back when, before PC-mania. But when they turned into an IBM PC programming tools review magazine... well, I won't allow a PC-clone within these walls, so what use would DDJ be to me? Techniques I can always use, no matter what computer I own. Reviews of 16 IBM-PC "C" compilers and 32 IBM-PC programmer's editors, as the entire content of the magazine, though... bah. -- Eric Lee Green ..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 MISFORTUNE, n. The kind of fortune that never misses.
sampson@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Steve Sampson) (09/12/88)
Speaking of long hair... It's mostly out of style, except for nerds with pocket protectors. I thought Allen Holubs editorial was pretty good. In there he states that he found out his company was making war material. (he didn't know this when he hired on - I'm doubtful on that!). To resolve this dilemma he increased his consulting fee, and gave the money to pacifist organizations. What I want to know is: What is the name of these pacifist organizations that accept money from defense contractors. I laughed alot on that one. I can see where his mentality is taking him. I believe he will comit suicide by running into the path of an Army convoy holding on to some peace-nik sign, with his peace-nik group collecting the royalties from his Unix-Clone tools.
dick@slvblc.UUCP (Dick Flanagan) (09/12/88)
In article <3792@omepd> pcm@iwarpj.intel.com (Phil C. Miller) writes: > I'm sorry that Allen got the shaft from DDJ. I hope he will come in contact > with another magazine and continue to publish his fine articles. Allen should get in touch with the folks at MicroCornucopia in Bend, OR. They're one of the last honest micro magazines left. Dick -- Dick Flanagan, W6OLD GEnie: FLANAGAN UUCP: ...!ucbvax!ucscc!slvblc!dick Voice: +1 408 336 3481 Internet: slvblc!dick@ucscc.UCSC.EDU LORAN: N037 04.7 W122 04.6 USPS: PO Box 155, Ben Lomond, CA 95005
ralf@b.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Ralf Brown) (09/12/88)
In article <23174@wlbr.EATON.COM> mh@wlbr.eaton.com.UUCP (Mike Hoegeman) writes: }Too bad these aforementioned MBA's who many times "manage" us }know-nothing programmers (SORRY! I should say 'software engineer') }want to know why we want to waste our time with usenet when we can just }read their stacks of 'HyperWorld' type magazines instead. Don't you mean 'HypeWorld'? -- {harvard,uunet,ucbvax}!b.gp.cs.cmu.edu!ralf -=-=- AT&T: (412)268-3053 (school) ARPA: RALF@B.GP.CS.CMU.EDU |"Tolerance means excusing the mistakes others make. FIDO: Ralf Brown at 129/31 | Tact means not noticing them." --Arthur Schnitzler BITnet: RALF%B.GP.CS.CMU.EDU@CMUCCVMA -=-=- DISCLAIMER? I claimed something?
diamond@csl.sony.JUNET (Norman Diamond) (09/12/88)
In article <Sep.8.22.22.29.1988.15702@pilot.njin.net>, limonce@pilot.njin.net (Tom Limoncelli) writes: > Hmmm... Byte lost its good "techie-edge" and became a > hardware/software review magazine. > Hmmm... DDJ lost its good "techie-edge" and became a programer's > catalog. > Hmmm... I can name a couple others too. > Hmmm... there aren't many left. > Maybe I could start a magazine? Then in a couple years I can sell it > to MBAs for a big profit and... oh... never mind. > Tom (in a silly mood... sorry) Yes, starting a new magazine is the only way to do it. The same is true of most manufacturing companies too; once their market is established, they lose their "techie-edge" and concentrate on other ways of "promoting" their products. That's why a certain fraction of new startups become famous and respected, while long-established companies become infamous and .... No one could blame you for selling to MBAs for a big profit. Just please guarantee that subscriptions can always be cancelled with refunds. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The above opinions are my own. | Norman Diamond If they're also your opinions, | Sony Computer Science Laboratory, Inc. you're infringing my copyright. | diamond%csl.sony.junet@uunet.uu.net
scs@itivax.UUCP (Steve C. Simmons) (09/12/88)
In article <many@lots.of.places> many@places write: > [[ lots of kark about Dr. Dobbs... ]] It's all interesting in a rather repugnant way, but it sure isn't grist to take up 70% of comp.land.c++. Note the Followup-To: list above. -- Steve Simmons ...!umix!itivax!vax3!scs Industrial Technology Institute, Ann Arbor, MI. "You can't get here from here."
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (09/12/88)
>Don't you mean 'HypeWorld'?
No, he just let slip that he is a closet MacPerson!.jans@tekgvs.GVS.TEK.COM (Jan Steinman) (09/13/88)
<<I used to subscribe to Byte and DDJ, but I now subscribe to magazines which have filled the gap left by these two glossy applications-oriented periodicals.>> <Ditto. Also, Micro Cornucopia is the best alternate I know of right now, but it may be drifting towards the mean also...> I think not, at least as long as they continue to publish from the publishing capital of Deschutes County, Bend, OR. (In my opinion, it was when DDJ went to M&T Publishing that things started downhill.) It is also reassuring to know that most of them have other jobs, but how long can that last? You either burn-out or sell-out, sooner or later. :::::: Software Productivity Technologies -- Experiment Manager Project :::::: :::::: Jan Steinman N7JDB Box 500, MS 50-383 (w)503/627-5881 :::::: :::::: jans@tekcrl.TEK.COM Beaverton, OR 97077 (h)503/657-7703 ::::::
shawn@pnet51.cts.com (Shawn Stanley) (09/13/88)
jax@well.UUCP (Jack J. Woehr) writes: > Every month the mag comes shrink wrapped with enough ads to >choke a trash compacter. Better than in the magazine itself. Reminds me of a news item I saw once, about a guy who fueled his heater with junk mail. In this day and age, maybe we'll all end up using Ashley stoves instead of Minnegasco soon... UUCP: {rosevax, crash}!orbit!pnet51!shawn INET: shawn@pnet51.cts.com
dmt@mtunb.ATT.COM (Dave Tutelman) (09/13/88)
In article <2822@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV> rich@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Richard Pettit) writes: >In case nobody noticed, you are currently reading the most comprehensive, >open minded, engineer/programmer oriented magazine available in the world. > Right on, Rich! Five or six years ago, when I started reading the net, I fairly quickly let my subscriptions to Byte & TC Tech Journal lapse. I found that I was served better by usenet. (Not necessarily cheaper, either in time or money, but better.) The salient points: - Rumor and news showed up MONTHS earlier on the net than in the magazines. - Of course, there was somewhat more MISinformation on the net than in the magazines, but not by that much. And unlike the magazines, I saw a lot of points of view and could quickly determine what I ought to believe. In the mags, misinformation is gospel, 'cause you only get the one story. - As a responsive medium (query/solution) Byte was months of turnaround and unreliable, PCTJ was virtually nonexistent, and the net was quick and convenient. (Not all queries got responses, but MUCH better than Byte, and much faster.) +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Dave Tutelman | | Physical - AT&T Bell Labs - Lincroft, NJ | | Logical - ...att!mtunb!dmt | | Audible - (201) 576 2442 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+
billr@tekred.TEK.COM (Bill Randle) (09/14/88)
In article <8809120048.AA03511@slvblc.UUCP> slvblc!dick@ucscc.UCSC.EDU (Dick Flanagan) writes: >In article <3792@omepd> pcm@iwarpj.intel.com (Phil C. Miller) writes: >> I'm sorry that Allen got the shaft from DDJ. I hope he will come in contact >> with another magazine and continue to publish his fine articles. > >Allen should get in touch with the folks at MicroCornucopia in Bend, OR. >They're one of the last honest micro magazines left. > In case you were wondering how to get in touch with MicroCornucopia (to subscribe, for instance) they can contacted at: MicroCornucopia PO Box 223 Bend OR 97709 (503) 382-5060 They're worth checking into. -Bill Randle Tektronix, Inc. billr@saab.CNA.TEK.COM
mh@wlbr.EATON.COM (Mike Hoegeman) (09/14/88)
In article <225800066@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu> mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >>Don't you mean 'HypeWorld'? > >No, he just let slip that he is a closet MacPerson!. Nah, not really. I did program on the early Mac's a bit, but at the moment I'm a Sun man all the way. Hyper* is the latest buzzword and it quite nicely also contined "Hype" as a prefix and so ****HYPERWORLD**** was born. In fact I like the name so much I think it should become a reality. It could become the National Enquirer of technical journal's! I can see my first headline now... Dennis Ritchie Reveals: "C was just a phase, PL has always been my *1* true love..." -mike
bradd@gssc.UUCP (Brad Davis) (09/15/88)
In article <636@muffin.cme-durer.ARPA> libes@cme-durer.arpa (Don Libes) writes: > >C'mon. This is not fair to give Holub a platform without giving DDJ a >chance. DDJ has a platform... it is called Doctor Dobb's Journal. They have every opportunity to tell their side of the story that Holub has, plus one that he does not. If they offer no defense, we just have to assume they are guilty as charged (1/2 :-) here). Of course if they do print anything about it, I won't see it as I dropped DDJ earlier this year. Hopefully someone on the net will point it out. Brad Davis ====== ====== ====== US MAIL: 9590 SW Gemini Dr. == == == Beaverton, OR 97005 == == == == == == PHONE: (503) 641-2200 == == == == UUCP: uunet!tektronix!sequent!gssc!bradd ====== ====== ====== Disclaimer: I'm a mushroom. Graphic Software Systems "Practice safe computing. Wear a write-protect tab."
childers@unet.pacbell.COM (Richard Childers) (09/15/88)
In article <14047@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> dean@violet.berkeley.edu (Dean Pentcheff) writes: >Let's face it: programmers (especially non-full-time ones) don't rate >squat with advertisers. . . . >Unfortunately, I don't see much of a way around this problem. Suggestions, >anyone? Well, the costs of printing and distributing could be cut sharply by making it entirely BBS-based and placing its contents in the public domain after, say, one month, at which point in time the material is considered dated and commercially useless. -- richard -- "The leech's kiss, the squid's embrace, ..!{amdahl,ames,oliveb,pacbell}! The prurient ape's defiling touch: childers@chaos.unet.pacbell.COM And do you like the human race ? No, not much." -- Aldous Huxley, 'Ape And Essence'
elg@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Eric Green) (09/18/88)
In message <75@unet.pacbell.COM>, childers@unet.pacbell.COM (Richard Childers) says: >In article <14047@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> dean@violet.berkeley.edu (Dean Pentcheff) writes: > >>Let's face it: programmers (especially non-full-time ones) don't rate >>squat with advertisers. > . >>Unfortunately, I don't see much of a way around this problem. Suggestions, >>anyone? > >Well, the costs of printing and distributing could be cut sharply by making >it entirely BBS-based and placing its contents in the public domain after, >say, one month, at which point in time the material is considered dated and >commercially useless. Problem #1: Advertising. As I'm sure you know, the majority of the cost of a magazine is paid by advertising. Thus, while it costs about the same to create and ship a floppy-based magazine as it does a paper-based magazine, advertisers don't appreciate not having their glossies in there, and stay away in droves. That makes it hard to pay authors, which makes it hard to gather worthwhile material (how many people will, UNPAID, put out detailed, well-written articles? USENET is perfect proof of the converse :-). This also makes it hard to sell subscriptions for any reasonable price, which simply brings up point #2, DISTRIBUTION. Even if we find some way of, say, digitizing the advertiser's glossies, distribution is a problem. Disks are expensive, especially if we have lots of digitized pictures = lots of disks. A BBS is no answer, because it costs most people more to get info from a BBS than it would from U.S. Mail & floppy disks (old aphorism: Never underestimate the bandwidth of a pickup truck full of 9-track tape!). Not to mention that these pictures would be LARGE.... even a 640x400 in 16 colors takes up some 128K. A number of these would make the daily volume of USENET look trivial. Thus, I doubt that it will be feasible anytime soon to create an on-line or disk-based magazine with any success (note that copying is no problem, if it's advertiser-based -- advertisers love having their advertisements spread as far and wide as possible). "soon" == any time before the installation of high-speed digital communications serving the majority of computer owners (i.e. ISDN & competitors). -- Eric Lee Green ..!{ames,decwrl,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!elg Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 Lafayette, LA 70509 MISFORTUNE, n. The kind of fortune that never misses.
don@novavax.UUCP (Don Joslyn) (09/22/88)
Add one more to the list of subscribers to DDJ that have cancelled their
subscription. Even the August annual C issue was not worth the money.
This issue hade 106 ads out of 160 pages, and the rest was useless.
Does it really take 106 pages of ads to produce 54 useless pages of text?
--
Don Joslyn, Academic Systems and Programming Manager
Nova University, Computer Center (Academic Computing Services)
3301 College Avenue, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33314 Phone: (305) 475-7678
UUCP: ...{gatech!uflorida,ucf-cs}!novavax!don
...{gatech!uflorida,ucf-cs}!novavax!dons3b1!don (Private)ljz%fxgrp.fx.com@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Lloyd Zusman) (09/22/88)
In article <721@novavax.UUCP> don@novavax.UUCP (Don Joslyn) writes:
Add one more to the list of subscribers to DDJ that have cancelled their
subscription. ...
And add me, as well. Is someone willing to collect all of these DDJ
complaints and after a while, send the entire list to M&T? I think
they would like to know how badly their magazine is being received.
Plus, Allen Holub might like to know about the support he has gotten here,
and perhaps the list could be sent to him, as well.
I would do this myself, but our site is short on disk space and
any news more than a few days old has disappeared.
--
Lloyd Zusman Internet: ljz@fx.com
Master Byte Software or ljz%fx.com@ames.arc.nasa.gov
Los Gatos, California or fxgrp!ljz@ames.arc.nasa.gov
"We take things well in hand." uucp: ...!ames!fxgrp!ljz
[ our Internet connection is down: use uucp or mail to the entry above it ]shawn@pnet51.cts.com (Shawn Stanley) (09/24/88)
don@novavax.UUCP (Don Joslyn) writes: > >Add one more to the list of subscribers to DDJ that have cancelled their >subscription. Even the August annual C issue was not worth the money. >This issue hade 106 ads out of 160 pages, and the rest was useless. > >Does it really take 106 pages of ads to produce 54 useless pages of text? I must admit I'm a little bothered by recent issues as well. I used to look forward to each issue of DDJ; now, I'm not so sure. I didn't find anything useful in the present issue (compared to past issues), and I had been anxiously awaiting that to make up for the September issue! However, I've noticed a trend with DDJ... they keep changing the editing around, adjusting their writers, etc. I hope they're not done, because I don't think they've hit on the right combination yet. Or the current combination just hasn't learned what to give ME. Heh. UUCP: {rosevax, crash}!orbit!pnet51!shawn INET: shawn@pnet51.cts.com
scott@hpcvca.HP.COM (Scott Linn) (09/24/88)
And yet another who has let his subscription to Byte, Dr. Dobbs and PC World lapse... Scott Linn HP - Northwest IC Division
tmg@nyit.UUCP (Tom Genereaux) (09/28/88)
If someone will be kind enough to e-mail me the collection, I will make sure that Jon Erickson sees them. (I sometimes sysop the Compu$erve DDJForum.) Tom G.