jourdan@seti.inria.fr (jourdan martin joseph) (08/18/89)
In article <14866@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> ari@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Ari Halberstadt) writes: >[stuff about someone not knowing Dennis Richly (sic!)] > >Look, maybe we should create a "comp.lang.c.beginner" group or something. >I'm getting tired of reading these endless questions like "what's a comma >operator?", why do we have a main function?, how do I post to this network? >etc. etc. > >[...] >-- Ari Halberstadt '91, "Long live succinct signatures" I strongly support this wish! "comp.lang.c" is presently a mess in which you have to sort out interesting discussions from naive questions, and this is tiring. (When I left for holidays a month ago I had caught up with this newsgroup; two days ago I came back and there were more than 500 new postings!) I don't mean that naive questions should be totally forbidden. There exist quite a number of areas in which I would appreciate expert advice about naive problems, but they do not include the C language. One solution would be to have this group moderated, but I can already hear the flamethrowers preparing their weapons... What I propose instead is to structure "comp.lang.c" into a number of subgroups for easier sorting. Possible topics could include: language (as such) libraries interface with various OS beginners misc (do not forget it!) IMHO these topics should not be totally "waterproof" to each other, but at least this could be a start. How do you feel about that? -- Martin Jourdan <jourdan@minos.inria.fr>, INRIA, Rocquencourt, France. My employers have no opinion and they guarantee my freedom of expression.
leoh@hardy.harris.com (Leo Hinds) (09/07/89)
I too find the volume in this group to be more than I can reasonably follow, but would NOT suggest the forming of ".beginner" (or similar) but ".advanced". This way a beginner posting a question, who might (reasonably) deduce that "comp.lang.?" (in this case C) to be the right place to ask his question, would be correct. Just an opinion ... Leo Hinds
CCDN@levels.sait.edu.au (DAVID NEWALL) (09/08/89)
In article <14866@dartvax.Dartmouth.EDU> ari@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Ari Halberstadt) writes: >[stuff about someone not knowing Dennis Richly (sic!)] > >Look, maybe we should create a "comp.lang.c.beginner" group or something. >I'm getting tired of reading these endless questions like "what's a comma >operator?", why do we have a main function?, how do I post to this network? Ari sounds like someone who has forgotton what it is like to be a beginner. I agree that naive questions can get boring. Certainly, too, the information can often be found elsewhere. But let us not forget that one of the purposes of the net is to ask and answer questions. I say: If you find a stream of conversation uninteresting, then you can do something about it. You could unsubscribe to the news group (although that seems like overkill); you could put the stream into your kill file. You could *answer* the question at issue. Saying: "Let's piss them off to a beginners group" is not the answer. In fact, it's decidedly unfriendly. Let's be brutally honest here, and admit (to ourselves) that just about every single question asked in this forum is going to seem naive and boring to someone. My flamish advice: Get off your high horse; you ain't so perfect, either. David Newall Phone: +61 8 343 3160 Unix Systems Programmer Fax: +61 8 349 6939 Academic Computing Service E-mail: ccdn@levels.sait.oz.au SA Institute of Technology Post: The Levels, South Australia, 5095
Tim_CDC_Roberts@cup.portal.com (09/09/89)
I'm afraid I have to agree with Leo Hinds.
If we create comp.lang.c.beginner and comp.lang.c.advanced, then where
do you think beginners are going to ask their questions? "Let me see,
I have a question (what is the comma operator) that surely only an
advanced C user would know. So, I'll post it to comp.lang.c.advanced!"
Similarly, if only beginners subscribed to comp.lang.c.beginner, then
who is going to answer their questions? Other beginners? ("Well, you
see, the comma operator is used to separate arguments to functions, and
as a side effect guarantees order of evaluation...")
I agree that there is a lot of traffic on comp.lang.c, but I don't know
how to (or even if we should) reduce it.
Tim_CDC_Roberts@cup.portal.com | Control Data...
...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!tim_cdc_roberts | ...or it will control you.piet@cs.ruu.nl (Piet van Oostrum) (09/09/89)
In article <1463@hcx1.UUCP>, leoh@hardy (Leo Hinds) writes:
`
`I too find the volume in this group to be more than I can reasonably follow,
`but would NOT suggest the forming of ".beginner" (or similar) but ".advanced".
`
`This way a beginner posting a question, who might (reasonably) deduce that
`"comp.lang.?" (in this case C) to be the right place to ask his question,
`would be correct.
`
Right, the default should be the ``garbage'' newsgroup. Why not create a
comp.lang.c.wizards (or .experts) group?
--
Piet van Oostrum, Dept of Computer Science, University of Utrecht
Padualaan 14, P.O. Box 80.089, 3508 TB Utrecht, The Netherlands
Telephone: +31-30-531806 Telefax: +31-30-513791
Internet: piet@cs.ruu.nl Uucp: mcvax!hp4nl!ruuinf!pietbph@buengc.BU.EDU (Blair P. Houghton) (09/10/89)
In article <1559@ruuinf.cs.ruu.nl> piet@cs.ruu.nl (Piet van Oostrum) writes: >In article <1463@hcx1.UUCP>, leoh@hardy (Leo Hinds) writes: > ` > `I too find the volume in this group to be more than I can reasonably follow, > `but would NOT suggest the forming of ".beginner" (or similar) but ".advanced". > ` > `This way a beginner posting a question, who might (reasonably) deduce that > `"comp.lang.?" (in this case C) to be the right place to ask his question, > `would be correct. > ` >Right, the default should be the ``garbage'' newsgroup. Why not create a >comp.lang.c.wizards (or .experts) group? CALL FOR VOTES comp.lang.c.effect.of.free.(.).yipe --Blair "Just kidding."
schaut@madnix.UUCP (Rick Schaut) (09/10/89)
In article <1559@ruuinf.cs.ruu.nl> piet@cs.ruu.nl (Piet van Oostrum) writes: | In article <1463@hcx1.UUCP>, leoh@hardy (Leo Hinds) writes: | ` | `I too find the volume in this group to be more than I can reasonably follow, | `but would NOT suggest the forming of ".beginner" (or similar) but ".advanced". | ` | `This way a beginner posting a question, who might (reasonably) deduce that | `"comp.lang.?" (in this case C) to be the right place to ask his question, | `would be correct. | ` | Right, the default should be the ``garbage'' newsgroup. Why not create a | comp.lang.c.wizards (or .experts) group? And if you were a beginner and had a question, would you ask other beginners or the 'wizards'? It's funny, but the Borland programming forum on Compu$erve gets as much, if not more, traffic from beginners as this group gets, and their questions are treated as respectfully and as seriously as the difficult stuff. I have yet to see the letters 'RTFM' posted in a message there. Can't you people grow up and remember that you were once beginners at C as well? -- Richard Schaut ArpaNet: madnix!schaut@cs.wisc.edu UseNet: ...uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!madnix!schaut {decvax!att}!
al@crucible.UUCP (Al Evans) (09/10/89)
In article <4091@buengc.BU.EDU> bph@buengc.bu.edu (Blair P. Houghton) writes: >CALL FOR VOTES > >comp.lang.c.effect.of.free.(.).yipe Yeah, really. Or maybe comp.lang.c.interminable.discussions. Or just talk.religion.c. --Al Evans-- -- Al Evans "You'd grep to know what ...uunet!execu!sequoia!crucible!al you really sed." --Referent Blob
tneff@bfmny0.UU.NET (Tom Neff) (09/11/89)
In article <840@madnix.UUCP> schaut@madnix.UUCP (Rick Schaut) writes: >And if you were a beginner and had a question, would you ask other >beginners or the 'wizards'? It's funny, but the Borland programming >forum on Compu$erve gets as much, if not more, traffic from beginners >as this group gets, and their questions are treated as respectfully >and as seriously as the difficult stuff. Usenet is not CompuServe. CIS supplies its own machines and you pay, voluntarily, for the privilege of darting in and accessing just what you want -- with no burden on others as a result. Usenet is a cooperative net where news articles flood everywhere, and it has different rules. Specifically if you are a beginner it is your responsibility to read the news.announce.newusers articles before posting anything. If you do this you get to see what comp.unix.wizards is for, and how it differs from the other newsgroups. Many problems begin when beginners, or even longtime lurkers who have never read the n.a.n stuff, confuse this net with their neighborhood BBS or pay time share service. > I have yet to see the letters >'RTFM' posted in a message there. Can't you people grow up and remember >that you were once beginners at C as well? Individual CIS Forums are subject to the stylistic and etiquette preferences of their Administrators and, in the case of product support Forums like Borland, their sponsoring companies. Borland and CIS make money off every beginner who comes in and asks the same questions over and over, and off most well meaning experts who kindly answer. It is manifestly not in their financial interest to have newbies offline R'ing TFM instead of online reading and posting to the Forum. Here it is different - we are all sharing the cost of passing this stuff around, and the more time newbies spend "offline" the better. -- Annex Canada now! We need the room, \) Tom Neff and who's going to stop us. (\ tneff@bfmny0.UU.NET
piet@cs.ruu.nl (Piet van Oostrum) (09/11/89)
In article <840@madnix.UUCP>, schaut@madnix (Rick Schaut) writes:
`And if you were a beginner and had a question, would you ask other
`beginners or the 'wizards'?
Can't you people grow up and remember
`that you were once beginners at C as well?
That is NOT the problem. The ``beginners'' or ``wizards'' do not qualify
the people that are reading or writing the newsgroup, but the kind of
subjects that are treated there. After all, separating subjects is just what
the whole newsgroup idea is about. Maybe the names were chosen badly. I
suggested ``wizard'' by analogy to the ``comp.sys.unix groups''.
On the other hand, people complain that too many beginners questions do
make the group less useful for people that have questions about intricate
problems. Of course it will never be possible to draw a clear border line.
Also I think there are too many questions arising again and again, that
should be answered by getting an introductory course, or studying a good
textbook. Like the ever and ever recurring questions about NULL and 0 and
pointers to address 0.
--
Piet van Oostrum, Dept of Computer Science, University of Utrecht
Padualaan 14, P.O. Box 80.089, 3508 TB Utrecht, The Netherlands
Telephone: +31-30-531806 Telefax: +31-30-513791
Internet: piet@cs.ruu.nl Uucp: mcvax!hp4nl!ruuinf!pietschaut@cat9.CS.WISC.EDU (Richard Schaut) (09/11/89)
In article <14651@bfmny0.UU.NET> tneff@bfmny0.UU.NET (Tom Neff) writes: |In article <840@madnix.UUCP> schaut@madnix.UUCP (Rick Schaut) writes: |>And if you were a beginner and had a question, would you ask other |>beginners or the 'wizards'? It's funny, but the Borland programming |>forum on Compu$erve gets as much, if not more, traffic from beginners |>as this group gets, and their questions are treated as respectfully |>and as seriously as the difficult stuff. | |Usenet is not CompuServe. CIS supplies its own machines and you pay, |voluntarily, for the privilege of darting in and accessing just what you |want -- with no burden on others as a result. Usenet is a cooperative |net where news articles flood everywhere, and it has different rules. Granted, there are differences. However, these differences are irrelevant when it comes to how people should respond to questions. Also, since restructuring the newsgroup will not reduce the traffic, any remarks about the volume of traffic are also irrelevant. This discussion has grown out of people's annoyance with constant, often repeated, questions by beginners. I was pointing out two things: 1) This is a problem that restructuring the newsgroup will not solve; and 2) Even if a question has been asked fifteen times in the last month, we should still treat the askers with repsect. |Specifically if you are a beginner it is your responsibility to read the |news.announce.newusers articles before posting anything. If you do this |you get to see what comp.unix.wizards is for, and how it differs from |the other newsgroups. Many problems begin when beginners, or even |longtime lurkers who have never read the n.a.n stuff, confuse this net |with their neighborhood BBS or pay time share service. This is a problem related to system adninistrators doing their jobs, and is not related in any way to the structure of this newsgroup. Most beginners don't even know that n.a.n exists (on both systems that I have accounts, nothing was ever said to me about netiquette, appropriate newsgroups, etc). |> I have yet to see the letters |>'RTFM' posted in a message there. Can't you people grow up and remember |>that you were once beginners at C as well? | |Individual CIS Forums are subject to the stylistic and etiquette |preferences of their Administrators and, in the case of product support |Forums like Borland, their sponsoring companies. Borland and CIS make |money off every beginner who comes in and asks the same questions over |and over, and off most well meaning experts who kindly answer. It is |manifestly not in their financial interest to have newbies offline R'ing |TFM instead of online reading and posting to the Forum. | |Here it is different - we are all sharing the cost of passing this stuff |around, and the more time newbies spend "offline" the better. The unpaid people who answer the questions of beginners and kindly do so at their own expense have as much right to get upset about newcommers asking simple questions is you do here. The point is that they don't! There is a fundamental difference in attitudes that has nothing to do with money. Rather, it has to do with treating people as human beings (like NOT referring to them as 'newbies'). The problem of newcommers is one that is NOT solved by treating them as warts nor by waving our arms about restructuring this newsgroup. It has to do with education which is the responsibility of the system admistrators. Obviously, there are administrators out there who are not doing their jobs. Should we take the results of their failings out on people who simply don't know better? It would be far simpler, and much more effective, for experienced users to take on that task of education themselves. A little kind e-mail goes a long way without wasting bandwidth. Rick "Any questions? Any answers? Anyone like a mint?" -- source unknown
tneff@bfmny0.UU.NET (Tom Neff) (09/12/89)
Splitting the newsgroup won't help. I am addressing the issue of why
expert contributors to this and other newsgroups tend to say "RTFM"
rather than repetitively and kindly re-explaining everything every time
a newbie [not a pejorative] asks a novice or inappropriate question.
It's not cost efficient to pretend this is CIS/BPROGA.
Newsreader education lags; things fall apart, the [computing?] center
cannot hold; there is no perfect solution; but no opportunity to remind
folks of new.announce.newusers should go amiss.
Enough trivia, back to C.
--
Annex Canada now! We need the room, \) Tom Neff
and who's going to stop us. (\ tneff@bfmny0.UU.NETmohta@necom830.cc.titech.junet (Masataka Ohta) (09/13/89)
In article <247@seti.inria.fr> jourdan@inria.fr (Martin Jourdan) writes: > language (as such) > libraries > interface with various OS > beginners > misc (do not forget it!) How about creating only one new newsgroup: comp.lang.c.pointers (including malloc related topics) Masataka Ohta
CCDN@levels.sait.edu.au (DAVID NEWALL) (09/14/89)
In article <1563@ruuinf.cs.ruu.nl>, piet@cs.ruu.nl (Piet van Oostrum) writes: > people complain that too many beginners questions do > make the group less useful for people that have questions about intricate > problems. "You in the middle row, there! Yes, you with the blonde hair. That question shows just how stupid you really are! You should know better than to ask such an obviously dumb question in class, disrupting all of us who already know the answer" David Newall Phone: +61 8 343 3160 Unix Systems Programmer Fax: +61 8 349 6939 Academic Computing Service E-mail: ccdn@levels.sait.oz.au SA Institute of Technology Post: The Levels, South Australia, 5095