AEVANS@SMITH.BITNET (11/28/89)
We are considering replacing Pascal with Modula2 as the language of instruction in our introductory Computer Science courses and were wondering (1) How many other schools have made this change? (2) How has it worked out? Any response would be appreciated. ************************************************************************* Alan Evans aevans@smith.bitnet (413) 586-4542 103 State St. evans%sophia.dnet@cs.umass.edu Northampton, MA *************************************************************************
doug@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Doug Kerr) (11/29/89)
In article <INFO-M2%89112808132280@UCF1VM> you write: >We are considering replacing Pascal with Modula2 as the language of >instruction in our introductory Computer Science courses and were >wondering (1) How many other schools have made this change? (2) How >has it worked out? Any response would be appreciated. We are in the midst of switching now. We've converted our first course and half of our second course. (We run two versions of the second course, one for students with experience in our chosen language, the other for students without such experience. We switched the latter to Modula-2 this quarter also. The "regular" version will switch next quarter.) We are using Metcom's Modula-2 on Macs for these two courses. We will use Sun's Modula-2 on the more advanced courses. From what I hear Modula-2 is working very well for the second course where we emphasize abstract data types. I don't think there is much difference in the first course. (We're on 10 week quarters so we don't get to material where Modula-2 is particularly useful until the 2nd quarter.) We will have our first experience next quarter with the Suns. -- Douglas S. Kerr, Department of Computer and Information Science The Ohio State University; 2036 Neil Ave. Columbus OH USA 43210-1277 doug@cis.ohio-state.edu 614/292-1519 ...!{pyramid,killer}!osu-cis!cis.ohio-state.edu!doug
n8243274@UNICORN.WWU.EDU ("steven l. odegard") (11/29/89)
In article <INFO-M2%89112808132280@UCF1VM> you write: >We are considering replacing Pascal with Modula2 as the language of >instruction in our introductory Computer Science courses and were >wondering (1) How many other schools have made this change? (2) How >has it worked out? Any response would be appreciated. Western Washington University made that change in 1983 or 1984, following the lead of the University of Washington, who made the change a half-year earlier. For questions on how this has worker out, I would recommend contacting the Computer Science Department here at Western, by telephone or US mail. I learned under the old Pascal system, but now work exclusively in Modula. -- --SLO 8243274@wwu.edu uw-beaver!wwu.edu!8243274 n8243274@unicorn.wwu.edu
cmp8118@SYS.UEA.AC.UK ("D.S. Cartwright") (11/29/89)
In comp.lang.modula2 you write: >We are considering replacing Pascal with Modula2 as the language of >instruction in our introductory Computer Science courses and were >wondering (1) How many other schools have made this change? (2) How >has it worked out? Any response would be appreciated. At the University of East Anglia, in sunny Norwich, England (sunny ?? England ?? oh, well ...) Modula-2 has now replaced Pascal as the 'standard' language for first year (and obviously the same people in subsequent years) undergraduates. I am a second year, and my year was the first to use Modula-2; the change was very simple (the humongous similarity between M-2 and Pascal did have a lot to do with this) and the language is both easy(ish) to learn and versatile, so there have been no real problems in changing languages. The situation on books about the language is rapidly improving; the only book you could really find when we started out with M-2 was "Modula-2: Constructive Program Development" by P.Messer and Ian Marshall (Ian Marshall also happened to be my lecturer on Modula-2!!), but there are now many, many more wonderful books about the language (on this side of the puddle anyway, I can't speak for America). The only potential problem with the change came about 3 weeks ago (well over a year into the new language!!); our second year courses can be taken by third years as well, so we have classes with both second and third years at the same time. Hence a possible problem - second years know Modula-2; third years know Pascal ('cos they were the last lot to learn it before we arrived and got stuck with Modula-2). Therefore there is a slight clash in the coursework for one of the subjects we cover: "... write a Modula-2 program to ...", but a bit of being-a-nice-chappie from the relevant lecturer has allowed the third year to use Pascal because it is so similar. CONCLUSION: Go for it !! It's an interesting and versatile language, easy(ish) to learn, and in my opinion well worth the change. ... and that's coming from someone who was on the student's end of the changeover ... Oh, yes ... could you bung me a summary of the replies you get to this query ?? I'd be very interested to hear what other people say on the matter !! Dave Cartwright, School of Information Systems (Yr II), University of East Anglia, Norwich, ENGLAND.
jim@CS.VU.NL (11/29/89)
In comp.lang.modula2 you write: >We are considering replacing Pascal with Modula2 as the language of >instruction in our introductory Computer Science courses and were >wondering (1) How many other schools have made this change? (2) How >has it worked out? Any response would be appreciated. We at Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam have replaced Pascal with Modula-2 two years ago. It was a painless affair. After all Modula-2 is not much different from Pascal if you don't use the non-Pascal features. In an introductory course you should be glad if students learn to use the procedure abstraction. I don't think that you should use the more advanced Modula-2 features. Students should cope with problems one at a time. Using modules for data abstraction is covered in a more advanced course. jim van keulen Vrije Universiteit dept. CS & M Amsterdam
BILL@GACVAX1.BITNET (11/30/89)
Gustavus Adolphus (one of those small liberal arts colleges) made the
switch two years ago -- I was one of the lab rats. We had one semester in
Pascal and the second in Mod-2. A warning follows : we did our first
semester in Turbo Pascal and the second in Logitech Mod-2, and as freshmen
and sophamores the difference in compile time was enough to turn most of
my class off to mod-2 completely. We worked on old IBM's, and the amount of
time it took to debug was enormous compared to what we were used to (i.e.
2-3 minutes for a compile and link of a medium sized program). If you make
the switch make sure that you get something FAST so the students don't have the
same reaction we did and learn to hate modula-2.
Bill Dueber BILL@GACVX1
Gustavus Adolphus Collegeabrodnik@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Andrej Brodnik (Andy)) (12/02/89)
Hi! In article <5840.8911291040@s1.sys.uea.ac.uk> Modula2 List <INFO-M2%UCF1VM.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU> writes: >In comp.lang.modula2 you write: > >>We are considering replacing Pascal with Modula2 as the language of >>instruction in our introductory Computer Science courses and were >>wondering (1) How many other schools have made this change? (2) How >>has it worked out? Any response would be appreciated. > > At the University of East Anglia, in sunny Norwich, England (sunny ?? >England ?? oh, well ...) Modula-2 has now replaced Pascal as the 'standard' >language for first year (and obviously the same people in subsequent years) > erased lines > > Oh, yes ... could you bung me a summary of the replies you get to this >query ?? I'd be very interested to hear what other people say on the matter !! > > I'd like to know: (1) machine you use for courses (2) compiler you use (3) text-book do you use teaching Modula-2. You can email me your answers and I will summarize them! Thank you for your effort and best regards Andrej
abrodnik@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Andrej Brodnik (Andy)) (12/02/89)
Hi! (I don't know, whether the previous posting was successeful, so I repeat my question about teaching Modula-2 in the course. Any comments are kindley welcome!) I'd like to know: (1) machine used for courses, (2) compiler which is used, (3) and a title of a text-book used You can email me your answers and I will summarize them! Thank you for your effort and best regards Andrej
RHARRIS@KENTVM.BITNET (Ralph Harris) (12/02/89)
We used Modula-2 to teach our Data Structures class, and the Dean
is considering using it to replace pascal. Although I've found that I like
Modula-2 better than pascal, and it is my choice among the structure languages,
it can take a little more effort to learn. Going from pascal to M2 was
difficult due to their simularities, I'd wonder why my perfectly good pascal
syntax was creating M2 errors. Personally, I'd suggest teaching it. The
ability to modularize programs and their data structures the way you can
with M2 makes it a good teaching tool, and its close enough to pascal
for people to make the switch without too much heatache. We even used
a Data Structure text book that used M2 code for its examples.
You might also want to talk to my Data Structure teacher/Computer Sci. Dean:
Darrell Turnidge
College of Arts & Sciences
Kent State University
Kent, OH 44243
Ralph Harris
Computer Science Major
Kent State University
rharris@kentvmeldridge@BOSS.CS.OHIOU.EDU ("Klaus E. Eldridge") (12/02/89)
We are thinking about iut also but are concerned about the appropriate software environment: JPI Modula2, The Hamburg version of an ETH version, etc. There's no clear winner at the moment. Primary reason is ease of switching (for the faculty) to a more "practical" language. Let's hear what you find out on the net. Klaus E. Eldridge Morton Hall 423 Computer Science Dept., Ohio University, Athens, Ohio 45701-2979 UUCP: ...!att!oucsace!oucsboss!eldridge Voice: +1 614 593 1242 INTERNET: eldridge@boss.cs.OHIOU.EDU BITNET: ELDRIDGE@OUACCVMB
Pat.Terry@p101.f4.n494.z5.fidonet.org (Pat Terry) (12/06/89)
> We are considering replacing Pascal with Modula2 as the language of > instruction in our introductory Computer Science courses and were > wondering (1) How many other schools have made this change? (2) How > has it worked out? Any response would be appreciated. We changed from Pascal to Modula-2 three years ago in our junior years after a few years of using it in the senior years. We work on IBM-PC's and use compilers like the shareware FST one (excellent value, and a nice tight implementation for beginners) and JPI TopSpeed (real nice environment that the kids all love when they are clever enough to handle it and not panic after a few wrong function key presses). It works well. Very well. Now I notice some of the folk in this thread are saying "well, it's easy to change to M-2, and you can avoid the real M-2 stuff for a while" or words to that effect. I think this makes a rather bad mistake. I'm convinced now that there is no great point in delaying some of the object oriented paradigm where it's useful - and we can give our kiddies much more fun importing Turtles, Jukeboxes, etc at an early stage - as well as get them onto modularised tree handlers, stack handlers, since we have to have some traditional stuff too! Sure, OOP is not everything, and M-2 isn't really OOP, some will say, but it can support some of the basic ideas rather well. I rolled my own book. Started life as a pascal clone, like so many do, but after some excellent remarks from my reviewers, by the time it came into print I had modified my view considerably, and I'm glad I did. For the record it's "An introduction to programming with modula-2", Addison Wesley, 1987, 0-201-17438-3. You can get all the sources (useful since I abandoned InOut for what I thought was a better, more self consistent one) and sources for some other exercises as well, from me. There are a few other books that try to be subtly different. I thought Messer and Marshall were on track in this respect, and the Stubbs and Webre second level one is good too. Doubtless there will be more good ones soon, but it seems a difficult market to reach. There are too many pascal clone books out there. I tried in mine to get the idea of "abstract" types across as early as possible. The one that student implement have to be rather simple at first (not the whole opaque pointer picnic, though of course they can use Turtles and Jukeboxes that have been done like that long before they can implement them for themselves). Were I to rewrite the book now I'd be even more radical, but at the time it seemed sensible to be fairly conventional in the choice of first examples and so on. The last two years I have moved to trying to be more innovative in the use of modules and ADTs (simple ones) from as early a stage as possible. It works very well. Not only does it challenge the students (many of whom have quite extensive TurboWhatsit experience before they get here) but it has also given the instructors a fresh breeze of insight and inspiration. So too, the distinction between the first "hacker" style course and the second "data structures" course is getting blurred. We try to emphasize design and interface specifications as early as possible too. Doesn't always work out too well, as for beginner level programs the division of "expertise" into different modules seems a bit contrived, especially to the better hackers, who can knock up a monolithic solution faster than their slower classmates can read the problem sheet. To summarise: I think M-2 works very well, but don't confine yourself to thinking of it as Pascal. Do it properly. It's not harder! I have to admit that the M-2 compilers on PC's haven't been as flashy or as fast as TurboWhatsit (though if students haven't seen the latter, they don't notice that M-2 is a bit slower, of course). And I concede that by now Turbo has most of the features of M-2 incorporated. Sadly, if students move to other Pascal systems they can't port their expertise in all the ad-on areas directly - whereas they can to a great extent with M-2. Later courses by my colleagues teach the kiddies C. Don't want to start the languages war; just one sad comment. Some of the students see the approach in the C courses as so different from my M-2 one that they think it is a whole new ball game. Out goes the design, abstraction, etc and in comes the "isn't it fun to get close to the machine and write all this cryptic stuff". I still have to find a way to teach programming so they see it as that, and not just as coding. There are lots of challenges left in life! -- uucp: uunet!{oresoft,intelhf}!m2xenix!puddle!5!494!4.101!Pat.Terry Internet: Pat.Terry@p101.f4.n494.z5.fidonet.org
amull@Morgan.COM (Andrew P. Mullhaupt) (12/08/89)
My brother started his Computer Science major at the University of Buffalo (actually S.U.N.Y.at B.) back when they used Pascal in batch, and he was so disgusted that he left school and joined the Air Force. He was at that time already fairly proficient at Pascal. After the Air Force, he went back to U.B., where they were using Modula-2 for introductory computer science. He became converted to Modula-2 even to the extent of preferring going to school to use a terminal for Modula-2 over using Pascal on his PC. Now, he (as I would have guessed) is changing his mind. That *&^%^#$! overworked shift key is starting to bug him, and Modula-2 eventually becomes a bit clumsy looking for simple things, as he now discovers. (Not that these are major issues- just creature comforts). He is even beginning to think that Pascal syntax is cleaner. (I agree, but I can certainly see the other side of the coin. I'm not Modula-2 bashing, just reporting what seems to me an interesting attitude shift in someone who has an interesting perspective on the issue of Pascal vs. Modula-2 as a first language.) I think important issues can be emphasized in either language over the other, but the convenience of the student in working on those interminable projects will be the biggest factor as far as I can see. Is anyone considering the proposed Extended Pascal as a teaching language? Also: I think that guarded commands and concurrent assignment are not really so advanced that students can't grasp them, and I would like to see students learn to specify programs more than I would like to see them bang around Pascal file I/O (or some such other triviality) for their first course. Later, Andrew Mullhaupt
rsutc@fornax.UUCP (Rick Sutcliffe) (12/09/89)
> In comp.lang.modula2 you write: >We are considering replacing Pascal with Modula2 as the language of >instruction in our introductory Computer Science courses and were >wondering (1) How many other schools have made this change? (2) How >has it worked out? Any response would be appreciated. Trinity Western University in Ft. Langley British Columbia has used Modula-2 for five years. We have used Logitech's PC compiler (good) and PCollier (bad service) and now use SemperSoft on MPW on the Mac. The text is Sutcliffe (Merrill publishing). I have been on sabbatical at the nearby (much larger) Simon Fraser University this year. Here, I am teaching their intro course, also using Sutcliffe (me) and Sun's compiler. (Good compiler, bad library) I would never go back to Pascal for either teaching or writing software. Rick Sutcliffe