cjh%CCA-UNIX@csin.UUCP (03/09/84)
Steven Maurer says:
In Thendara House, not a man from either
culture is presented as a loving, caring person; in NONE of [MZB]'s
books, does any "good" male protagonist like the society he are
living in.
I didn't bother arguing his flat statement on FTL because that's an area
approaching personal belief. This statement, however, can be tested
objectively: both parts are horseshit, pure and simple. Perhaps SM didn't
bother finishing the book; Damon Ridenow[-Alton?] and Andrew Carr appear rather
late, but both of them certainly qualify as "loving, caring person[s]"; the
fact that Damon is turns out to be one of the key elements in the book. The
second part requires a little more knowledge of the Darkover books, but I would
definitely point to Danilo [Syrtis? S-Ardais? in HERITAGE OF HASTUR, and
SHARRA'S EXILE], and add Lew Alton after his father's death, several of the
characters in HAWKMISTRESS, all but one of the men in the reworking of THE
BLOODY SUN, and even Regis Hastur himself (RH dislikes the constraints on him
of being the heir-designate but is no revolutionary, not even on the quiet
level of Damon in THE FORBIDDEN TOWER)---and this is a list from the top of my
head. I deliberately omit all of the early works since they are primarily
adventure stories rather than people stories.
There are a number of reasons for disliking one or more of the Darkover
books, but they either are matters of taste (a friend discards them, as he
does all ESP, as fantasy) or require more careful reading to substantiate.steven@qubix.UUCP (Steven Maurer) (03/16/84)
x I state: > >> In Thendara House, not a man from either > >> culture is presented as a loving, caring person; in NONE of [MZB]'s > >> books, does any "good" male protagonist like the society he are > cjh replies: > This statement, however, can be tested > objectively: both parts are horseshit, pure and simple. Perhaps SM didn't > bother finishing the book; Damon Ridenow[-Alton?] and Andrew Carr appear > rather late, but both of them certainly qualify as "loving, caring > person[s]"; the fact that Damon is turns out to be one of the key > elements in the book. Perhaps you should re-read my statement more carefully. I am talking about Thendara House, not The Forbidden Tower. In Thendara House, Damon and Andrew simply are presented simply as somewhat atypical nobility -- there is almost no exploration of their character at all, since the parts that they play are practically walk on bits. I realize that Damon and Andrew in Thendara House are NOT presented as total assholes, like every other male in the book, but this hardly misqualifies what I have said. cjh continues: > > The second part requires a little more knowledge of the Darkover books, > but I would definitely point to Danilo [Syrtis? S-Ardais? in HERITAGE OF > HASTUR, and SHARRA'S EXILE], and add Lew Alton after his father's death, > several of the characters in HAWKMISTRESS, all but one of the men in the > reworking of THE BLOODY SUN, and even Regis Hastur himself (RH dislikes > the constraints on him of being the heir-designate but is no revolutionary, > not even on the quiet level of Damon in THE FORBIDDEN TOWER)---and this > is a list from the top of my head. I deliberately omit all of the early > works since they are primarily adventure stories rather than people stories. Oh I am not saying that all her good male protagonists turn out to be total revolutionaries against their own culture (only half do), even MZB has too much a sense of reality for that. It is just that EVERY good protagonist seems to spend at least 5 pages throughout every book deploring the culture in which he was born. Danilo, Lew, Damon, and Regis certainly do..... Now before you go to bed tonight, think about the likelihood of that happening -- every single goodguy is at least a rebel sympathiser -- a secret feminist even though the word hasn't been invented yet. I believe that just about as much as I believe that all women are secret mashochists -- just like it says in the GOR books.... MZB cannot seem to create a character which does not fit into her goodguy/badguy mold: For example, a man who loves his wife and children (golly, maybe he dosen't even beat her when their baby turns out to be a girl), but sure as hell isn't going to give them any modern-day freedoms... Steven (horseshit, pure and simple) Maurer
betsy@dartvax.UUCP (Betsy Hanes Perry) (03/19/84)
Mr. Maurer would like to hear about
For example, a man who loves his wife and children (golly, maybe he
dosen't even beat her when their baby turns out to be a girl), but
sure as hell isn't going to give them any modern-day freedoms...
in one of MZB's novels.
What about the title character's father, The MacAran, in *Hawkmistress*?
He loves his daughter dearly, but he won't put up with any of her tomboy
nonsense, and tries to force her into a marriage against her will.
Yet he is presented as a sympathetic character. His daughter even
loves him, in spite of their strong philosophical differences.
(Just for the record, I thought that Mists of Avalon was terrible,
even though I'm a rabid Arthurian. Maybe BECAUSE I'm a rabid Arthurian.
So you don't have to be an MZB idolizer to like some of her works.)
--
Betsy Perry
UUCP: {decvax|linus|cornell}!dartvax!betsy
CSNET: betsy@dartmouth
ARPA: betsy%dartmouth@csnet-relaysteven@qubix.UUCP (Steven Maurer) (03/21/84)
> What about the title character's father, The MacAran, in *Hawkmistress*? Organization: Qubix Graphic Systems, Saratoga, CA Lines: 14 > He loves his daughter dearly, but he won't put up with any of her tomboy > nonsense, and tries to force her into a marriage against her will. > Yet he is presented as a sympathetic character. His daughter even > loves him, in spite of their strong philosophical differences. Hmmm, you might have got me there. I haven't read the book. (I think about the only one I don't have). Does he finally recant later in the story?? (like what happened in Two to Conquer). Steven Maurer