obnoxio@cartan.UUCP (03/23/87)
In article <495@mipos3.UUCP>, ekwok@mipos3 (Steve Dallas) writes: >Your implicit assumption is that the classics are inherently good and >that are now by the wayside is gross injustice. I happen to think other- >wise. The modern man is now enlightened to the fact that what plato >says is logically inconsistent, that what the greek thinkers say are >curious at their time, and as irrelavant in theirs as in ours. The modern >man has matured from his romantic adolescence, ready to take on the >harsh reality of the universe that we live in. The modern homer and >plato are the scientists, engineers musicians, novelists. In order for >the modern man to be "educated", it is necessary to refute untruth and >irrelevance - or to discount, using your word. That does not say that >the greek thinkers are not historical curiosities, but let's not make >them anymore than that; even they would find it silly. I read the above and want to throw up. Ignorance is one thing, but pride in it? And then pseudo-logical reasonings to justify ignorance? Quite frankly, I find much of Plato, Homer, etc quite relevant to the world around me. It's because "modern men" don't get educated beyond their petty how-to-make-a-fortune-and-retire-easy desires that so much is wrong with the world today. Instead of ever learning how to think for themselves, which is what a classical education was supposed to make possible, we get endless gibbering morons who can't make two sentences cohere logically, although they know how to program in C, and that suf- fices for them to make themselves out to be experts on rational analy- sis. And these are the people who turn into rabid Randroids or funda- mentalists or the like--intellects that can be blown over with a feather, yet who through their stubborn stupidity are reshaping the world around us with their stinking effluvia into their own pointless prefab image. I spit in your general direction. Life,for mostpeople,simply isn't. Take the socalled standardofliving. What do mostpeople mean by "living"? They don't mean living. They mean the latest and clo- sest plural approximation to singular prenatal pas- sivity which science,in its finite but unbounded wis- dom,has succeeded in selling their wives. If science could fail, a mountain's a mammal. Mostpeople's wives can spot a genuine delusion of embryonic omnipotence immediately and will accept no substitutes --luckily for us,a mountain is a mammal. -- e e cummings Lucky indeed. There's an extra irony here in this widespread lack of a full education. Mostpeople think Cummings poems are all cute looking games or something, but if they only knew that he majored in Greek, and that Greek poetry is often preserved in fragmentary form only, they'd have seen what his game was a lot more clearly. Feh. ucbvax!brahms!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
tedrick@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (03/24/87)
>>The modern man is now enlightened to the fact that what plato >>says is logically inconsistent, Sometimes inconsistent. However the clever trickery in Plato's arguments led directly to the formal logic of Aristotle (so that such sophistry could be refuted). In addition, Plato pinpointed very exactly many problems facing man and society both then and now. (My favorite is whether it is better to be a good man, or to appear to be a good man). One can trace many current ideas and viewpoints back to the Greek thinkers. It isn't so easy to come up with valid, worthwhile new ideas that are superior to the ideas of past thinkers. After all we have a long history filled with brilliant minds. The technical developments of the modern world have advantages and disadvantages. One of my favorite examples is writing and printing. Being able to record information and disseminate it has obvious uses. But one disadvantage is that since it is no longer necessary to retain information inside the human mind in order to pass it from generation to generation, the great capacity for memorization of vast quantities of information demonstrated by the ancients is withering away. In some sense modern man is devolving as a consequence of his technical advancement. >>that what the greek thinkers say are >>curious at their time, and as irrelavant in theirs as in ours. False. Unless you mean that since they are relevant now they were as relevant then (but I doubt that was your intent). >>The modern >>man has matured from his romantic adolescence, ready to take on the >>harsh reality of the universe that we live in. Sigh. The fallacies are becoming too numerous to refute in detail. >>The modern homer and >>plato are the scientists, engineers musicians, novelists. Absurd. >>In order for >>the modern man to be "educated", it is necessary to refute untruth Are we to conclude therefore that modern man is not educated? >>That does not say that >>the greek thinkers are not historical curiosities, but let's not make >>them anymore than that; even they would find it silly. To borrow an expression from weemba: ???? >I read the above and want to throw up. Ignorance is one thing, but >pride in it? And then pseudo-logical reasonings to justify ignorance? Well said. >Quite frankly, I find much of Plato, Homer, etc quite relevant to the >world around me. It's because "modern men" don't get educated beyond >their petty how-to-make-a-fortune-and-retire-easy desires that so much >is wrong with the world today. Agreed. Modern society resembles a vast con-game where most everyone is trying to rip everyone else off in order to get rich. Where are the individuals who are both well educated and dedicated to social welfare? The few individuals who are dedicated to service towards humanity are unfortunately fools for the most part. >Instead of ever learning how to think >for themselves, which is what a classical education was supposed to make >possible, we get endless gibbering morons who can't make two sentences >cohere logically, although they know how to program in C, Well said. >and that suf- >fices for them to make themselves out to be experts on rational analy- >sis. And these are the people who turn into rabid Randroids or funda- >mentalists or the like--intellects that can be blown over with a feather, >yet who through their stubborn stupidity are reshaping the world around >us with their stinking effluvia into their own pointless prefab image. Hopefully Matthew doesn't include me in that category (although it wouldn't surprise me if he did :-) >If science could fail, a mountain's a mammal. I like that phrase. >There's an extra irony here in this widespread lack of a full education. >Mostpeople think Cummings poems are all cute looking games or something, >but if they only knew that he majored in Greek, and that Greek poetry is >often preserved in fragmentary form only, they'd have seen what his game >was a lot more clearly. Feh. Unfortunately, I have minimal aptitude for acquiring new languages (such as C, German, Greek, etc.) Could you explain what his game was to the ignorant such as myself? Thanks, -Tom tedrick@ernie.berkeley.edu
janw@inmet.UUCP (03/25/87)
[tedrick@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP ] >>>The modern man is now enlightened to the fact that what plato >>>says is logically inconsistent, >Sometimes inconsistent. However the clever trickery in Plato's >arguments led directly to the formal logic of Aristotle (so that >such sophistry could be refuted). >In addition, Plato pinpointed very exactly many problems facing >man and society both then and now. (My favorite is whether it is >better to be a good man, or to appear to be a good man). One can >trace many current ideas and viewpoints back to the Greek thinkers. While agreeing with all of this, I think it does not quite answer the original poster - it only establishes the fact that the an- cients achieved a lot, and deserve respect - but not that they are still worth reading. It leaves the possibility that the moderns, standing on the old giants' shoulders, invariably see further and express what they see clearer. This is not, however, the case: somehow, in some areas, progress fails to occur. Though computation methods of 3 centuries ago may be outdated, Plato and Homer and the Bible aren't - it is a plain truth, established by reading them. And Aristophanes, even now, is *much* funnier than Johnny Carson. >The technical developments of the modern world have advantages >and disadvantages. One of my favorite examples is writing and >printing. Being able to record information and disseminate it >has obvious uses. But one disadvantage is that since it is no >longer necessary to retain information inside the human mind in >order to pass it from generation to generation, the great capaci- >ty for memorization of vast quantities of information demonstrat- >ed by the ancients is withering away. In some sense modern man is >devolving as a consequence of his technical advancement. A very good point; and there's another disadvantage. We copy things mechanically; they don't improve in the process. But oral tradition, folklore, gets edited while it is passed on; and, on the average, it gets improved. It is a process akin to natural selection. This cultural evolution depended on individual creativity. Every- one participated actively. In our culture, only wisecracks are developed like this. But TV shows, the staples of modern culture, are produced once, and then passed in millions of identical copies to the screens watched by millions of passive consumers. Books are a little different, because the reader is more active than the viewer; but still mostly passive and dependent. It is not merely memory that gets atrophied - it is creativity and independence, the mind and the heart, all the things that make us human. ... Well, at least the net is active. Here, in the electronic village, a new form of folk culture may be arising in our presence. It is still immature, but let's keep this baby alive. Jan Wasilewsky
greg@mind.UUCP (03/25/87)
In article <1065@cartan.Berkeley.EDU<>, obnoxio@brahms (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes:
<> I read the above and want to throw up. Ignorance is one thing, but
<> pride in it? And then pseudo-logical reasonings to justify ignorance?
<>
<> Quite frankly, I find much of Plato, Homer, etc quite relevant to the
<> world around me. It's because "modern men" don't get educated beyond
<> their petty how-to-make-a-fortune-and-retire-easy desires that so much
<> is wrong with the world today. Instead of ever learning how to think
<> for themselves, which is what a classical education was supposed to make
<> possible, we get endless gibbering morons who can't make two sentences
<> cohere logically, although they know how to program in C, and that suf-
<> fices for them to make themselves out to be experts on rational analy-
<> sis. And these are the people who turn into rabid Randroids or funda-
<> mentalists or the like--intellects that can be blown over with a feather,
<> yet who through their stubborn stupidity are reshaping the world around
<> us with their stinking effluvia into their own pointless prefab image.
<> ucbvax!brahms!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
YEAH!! Kick pedagogical BUTT, Matthew! You tell `em!
Greg@Princetonlinda@brueer.UUCP (04/03/87)
What an interesting conversation. In article <17988@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> tedrick@ernie.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Tom Tedrick) writes: >>>The modern man is now enlightened to the fact that what plato >>>says is logically inconsistent, > Good job there are a lot modern women about :-) > >It isn't so easy to come up with valid, worthwhile new ideas that are >superior to the ideas of past thinkers. After all we have a long >history filled with brilliant minds. Philosophy is all new to me. I'm quite into Eastern Philosophy and raed somewhere that the ideas of Plato and the Greek philosophers all stem from the Vedas originally. From the little I know of Platonism it certainly seems that way. Any comments ? > >>>The modern >>>man has matured from his romantic adolescence, ready to take on the >>>harsh reality of the universe that we live in. > >Sigh. The fallacies are becoming too numerous to refute in detail. Quite. >>>The modern homer and >>>plato are the scientists, engineers musicians, novelists. > >Absurd. Yes. A great philosopher could come from any field but you certainly could not equate ALL scientists, engineers etc with a great philosopher. >>>In order for >>>the modern man to be "educated", it is necessary to refute untruth > >Are we to conclude therefore that modern man is not educated? But one man's truth is another's untruth. How you see truth (Truth) depends on your philosophy. It is wrong to say someone is not educated just because he doesn't share your views. > >>>That does not say that >>>the greek thinkers are not historical curiosities, but let's not make >>>them anymore than that; even they would find it silly. > >To borrow an expression from weemba: > >???? Are you sure the original posting shouldn't have been in rec.jokes ? > >>I read the above and want to throw up. Ignorance is one thing, but >>pride in it? And then pseudo-logical reasonings to justify ignorance? > >Well said. In the words of the great tennis player: "He cannot be serious" > >>Quite frankly, I find much of Plato, Homer, etc quite relevant to the >>world around me. It's because "modern men" don't get educated beyond >>their petty how-to-make-a-fortune-and-retire-easy desires that so much >>is wrong with the world today. > >Agreed. Modern society resembles a vast con-game where most everyone >is trying to rip everyone else off in order to get rich. Isn't it nice that there are some of us about that aren't :-) > >Where are the individuals who are both well educated and dedicated >to social welfare? The few individuals who are dedicated to service >towards humanity are unfortunately fools for the most part. Yes. It *IS* very difficult to even consider dedicating your life to help other people, especially when a lot of our compassion has been educated out of us. > >>Instead of ever learning how to think >>for themselves, which is what a classical education was supposed to make >>possible, we get endless gibbering morons who can't make two sentences >>cohere logically, although they know how to program in C, > >Well said. Here here. > > >Unfortunately, I have minimal aptitude for acquiring new languages >(such as C, German, Greek, etc.) Could you explain what his game >was to the ignorant such as myself? Here here again ! -- Linda. 'Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence.' *==============================================================================* * Linda Birmingham. | * * Computer Centre | Voice: +44 895 74000 Ext 2561 * * Brunel | ARPA: linda%ee.brunel.ac.uk@ucl-cs.arpa * * The University of West London | * * Uxbridge | UUCP: ...!ukc!ee.brunel.ac.uk!linda * * UB8 3PH | * * UNITED KINGDOM | JANET: linda@uk.ac.brunel.ee * *==============================================================================*