andy@rocky.STANFORD.EDU (Andy Freeman) (01/17/88)
In article <6852@ihlpa.ATT.COM> you write: > Second, I'm sorry to be a poor sport, but I am kind of skeptical >of coercive duck mating behavior. Where was this documented? >How hard did the female fight? If it were a violent fight resulting >in broken feathers, it would hardly be an evolutionary advantage. In the cases I'm familar with (friend observed the behavior), there is no apparent evolutionary advantage, nonetheless, the male ducks gang-rape a female duck until she escapes or they get bored, long after she dies. I think the flock size is stable. I'm sorry, I don't have a published reference or a learned explanation. (It happens in Northfield, Minnesota.) Why don't people believe that animals and humans have behaviors that aren't advantageous? -andy -- Andy Freeman UUCP: {arpa gateways, decwrl, sun, hplabs, rutgers}!sushi.stanford.edu!andy ARPA: andy@sushi.stanford.edu (415) 329-1718/723-3088 home/cubicle
al@gtx.com (0732) (01/19/88)
In article <969@rocky.STANFORD.EDU> andy@rocky.stanford.edu (Andy Freeman) writes: > >In the cases I'm familar with (friend observed the behavior), there >is no apparent evolutionary advantage, nonetheless, the male ducks >gang-rape a female duck until she escapes or they get bored, long >after she dies. I think the flock size is stable. I'm sorry, I >don't have a published reference or a learned explanation. (It >happens in Northfield, Minnesota.) > >Why don't people believe that animals and humans have behaviors >that aren't advantageous? > Indeed, especially in the case of people, (sexual) behavior that seems not to enhance fitness is very common: Celibacy, homosexuality, oral sex, etc. There may be social or socio-biological explanations for some of these (Maybe celibates help their siblings, with whom they share genes) but on the whole I think that these "perversions" (to use the word in a completely non-derogatory way) are just the result of random deviations in our overly complex brain overwhelming the patterns formed by natural selection. That doesn't mean we can't find the patterns in the midst of the noise, though. Now an unscientific, anthropocentric musing about birds and reptiles: I am amazed by the amount of what we would call "cruelty" in bird society. I had not heard the duck example above, but I have seen chickens and pigeons single out a weak individual and peck it without mercy. My question is: why do so many people think of birds as being "nice" compared to, say, reptiles, which are regarded as creepy and suspicious. I'd trust a simple, honest reptile any day over the vicious society of certain birds. Why are reptiles so maligned? The bird gets to be a symbol of freedom, and the snake gets to be the symbol of "sin"? Seems hardly fair. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- | Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 2501 W. Dunlap, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA | | {ihnp4,cbosgd,decvax,hplabs,seismo}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al (602)870-1696 | ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "I am a thorough, careful person. When I throw rocks at seabirds, I leave no tern unstoned; when I paint baboons, I leave no stern untoned." -- probably from Reader's Digest
caeri@arisia.berkeley.edu (;;;;0000) (01/20/88)
In article <969@rocky.STANFORD.EDU> andy@rocky.stanford.edu (Andy Freeman) writes: >In article <6852@ihlpa.ATT.COM> you write: >> Second, I'm sorry to be a poor sport, but I am kind of skeptical >>of coercive duck mating behavior. Where was this documented? >>How hard did the female fight? If it were a violent fight resulting >>in broken feathers, it would hardly be an evolutionary advantage. >In the cases I'm familar with (friend observed the behavior), there >is no apparent evolutionary advantage, nonetheless, the male ducks >gang-rape a female duck until she escapes or they get bored, long >after she dies. I think the flock size is stable. I'm sorry, I >don't have a published reference or a learned explanation. (It >happens in Northfield, Minnesota.) When I went to Carleton College in Northfield,MN, I saw these duck rapes with my own eyes. It was pretty disgusting & traumatic for me to watch. 1 of the most memorable aspects of my 2 years there. I have no idea why they happened, except possibly population pressures. Yes, the females were sometimes assaulted to death. Even when they didn't die, it was clear the females were unwilling. A single female duck would be assaulted by several males. She usually would struggle & attempt to escape, unless she was too tired or injured. Interestingly, the same duck population exhibited normal pair mating behaviour which was both graceful & pleasurable to watch. (No voyeurism jokes, please... :) I always wondered when the ducklings hatched which 1's were the products of the gang rapes & how anything so cute & fuzzy could result from such atrocities of nature. But, then, nature isn't always pretty, is it? Cheers, Carrie