[sci.misc] Where do you find the future?

glg@sfsup.UUCP (G.Gleason) (03/11/88)

In article <2724@ihlpe.ATT.COM> res@ihlpe.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt, AT&T-DSG @ Indian Hill West) writes:
>As to the futurism aspect, I feel that the future will NOT be based on the
>wishful thinking embodied in the pseudosciences (telepathic communications,
>the world saved by noble UFO pilots, ones future foretold by ones birthdate,
>etc.).  Rather, the future depends on applying our knowledge to the problems
>at hand with undiluted vigor.  Such problems as AIDS, world hunger, 
>diminishing energy resources, and fundamental inhumanity of man toward one
>another, will not be solved by the Uri Gellers of the world, or by
>consulting the "predictions" of a Jean Dixon.  They will be solved by the
>application of the sciences (both hard and soft) to these problems.  The 
>more energy is diverted into bogus "sciences" the longer it will take to
>solve these problems.

While I agree that the future will not be based on wishfull thinking, I
would be careful about automatically labelling everything that does not
fit into the conventional model pseudoscience.  There is a pretty good
chance that new ways of thinking will revolutionize our world view in
the near future.  I say this because lately physicists are beginning to
sound like they did at the end of the last century, just before clasical
physics was stood on its head.  Quantum mechanics works so well (at least
where it does work), and people are saying, "in a few years we will have
a complete unified theory."

Just like last time, the "clasical" theory is very powerful and compelling
but there are a couple of pieces of evidence that could unravel the whole
thing, start a whole new ball game.  Einstien disliked the uncertainty
priciple so much that he kept trying to push it to the limits of absurdity.
The amazing thing is that the results just kept getting more absurd,
rather than finding anything inconsistent with quantum mechanics.

I'm not a physicist, so I can't adaquatly bring these arguments to their
conclusion but consider:

The ERP paradox (Einstien, etc. I don't remember the other names, but
	it is the one about two particles originating from the same
	original particle, so they are constrained to have opposite
	spins, and therefore measuring one means the other must
	instantaniously have the correct spin.)

Bell's inequality, which implies:
	Quantum mechanics fails
and/or	Objectivity fails
and/or	Locality fails

Any one of these failing may mean the world is a lot stranger than
originally thought.  There are holes that can cover almost any of
the popular pseudosciences.  This is not proof, but it opens the
door, and real experiments will eventually tell us something about
what is going on.

I was reading about this stuff in Robert Anton Wilson's _Cosmic_Triggers_.
Admittedly, he is not a "hard" scientist, and in this book he asks the
reader to consider the possibility of a number of things that are pretty
strange, but there is also growing evidence that there is no such thing
as an "objective" investigator, and he even suggests that we try on
different world views from time to time.  If we do not we risk being
trapped in a dogmatic stance that makes further investigation impossible.
Wilson says in his preface, "I don't believe in anything."  He says this
in response to letters he received after the first edition of the book
from people asking him if what he wrote was "true" or whether he
believed it.  Beliefs effectively block the possibility of learning
anything new.

What is my point?  Only that a lot of what gets passed off as science
is nothing but conventional dogma.  When Timothy Leary was experimenting
with using psychedelic drugs in therapy and mind research he ran afoul
of conventional dogma.  It didn't matter that in his work with prisoners,
85-90% of those he worked with stayed out of jail after being released
compared to the normal statistics where that number are soon back in
jail.  According to the standard model, his experiments should have
been repeated and either verified, or refuted.  Instead conventional
wisdom says these drugs are dangerous, and cannot be used by anyone,
not even a scientific investigator, and everyone thinks Leary is nothing
but a drugged out crackpot.

So, I ask you, what is reality, and who defines it?

Gerry Gleason

jesup@pawl14.pawl.rpi.edu (Randell E. Jesup) (03/12/88)

In article <2885@sfsup.UUCP> glg@/guest4/glgUUCP (xt1112-G.Gleason) writes:
>Bell's inequality, which implies:
...
>Any one of these failing may mean the world is a lot stranger than
>originally thought.  There are holes that can cover almost any of
>the popular pseudosciences.  This is not proof, but it opens the
>door, and real experiments will eventually tell us something about
>what is going on.

	So quantum works.  Is that really such a stunner?  Does that mean
that Uri Geller, whats-her-name the 'channeler', UFO groupies, etc are any
more believable than before?  How many of these are going to do 'real
experiments'?  The medicine men, faith healers, cultists, con artists, etc
have always been with us, and probably always will, because so many people
have a true need to believe in things, to be able to give up responsibility
or to have dreams of something outside their routine day-to-day lives.  Look
how many people will buy things like "100+MPG carburetors" for their 10 MPG
gas-guzzler, believing it will work.  Or read horoscopes in the paper and
believe them religously (note the term used, it gives an idea what's going on).

	Occaisionaly, people who have good ideas are riduculed by 'authorities'
who don't understand them, or haven't seen proof, etc.  My own great-great-
great-grandfather was known as 'mad man henson' because he thought a heavier
than air vehicle could be built (he was wrong, it's real hard (or impossible)
to do with 1840's or 50's steam engines for power).  But his aerodynamics and
lift were better than the Wrights.  Later, after moving from england to the
US, the department of the navy sent him a letter saying that breech loading
cannon were impossible.  (The smithsonian has the documents now).

	But these more often occur with engineering than with science, as
new machines and materials are perfected.  In science, theories can usually
be tested against reality.  Most psuedoscientists stay carefully away from
tests and hard predictions, relying on generalities, claiming coverups,
theatrics, and just plain ignoring things like objective proof.  Those that
really do believe in their ideas either find them fall short, or find them
to be provably true.  Those that are true become 'science' (assuming they
publish the fact).

     //	Randell Jesup			      Lunge Software Development
    //	Dedicated Amiga Programmer            13 Frear Ave, Troy, NY 12180
 \\//	beowulf!lunge!jesup@steinmetz.UUCP    (518) 272-2942
  \/    (uunet!steinmetz!beowulf!lunge!jesup) BIX: rjesup

(-: The Few, The Proud, The Architects of the RPM40 40MIPS CMOS Micro :-)

edk@gryphon.CTS.COM (Ed Kaulakis) (03/14/88)

In article <2885@sfsup.UUCP>, glg@sfsup.UUCP (G.Gleason) writes:
> 
> So, I ask you, what is reality, and who defines it?
> 
> Gerry Gleason

	I *think* it was Robert Anton Wilson who wrote that the two
most carefully obfuscated matters around are where does money come from
and where does the local definition of sanity (i.e., reality) come from.
But he seems a little paranoid, so even if he doesn't give answers, I 
think I'll ignore the questions. Yeah, that's it! I'll ignore them. Yeah.

Cheers,
	Edk

res@ihlpe.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt, AT&T-DSG @ Indian Hill West) (03/15/88)

In article <2885@sfsup.UUCP>, glg@sfsup.UUCP (G.Gleason) writes:
(in a very well stated posting)
| In article <2724@ihlpe.ATT.COM> res@ihlpe.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt, AT&T-DSG @ Indian Hill West) writes:
| |As to the futurism aspect, I feel that the future will NOT be based on the
| |wishful thinking embodied in the pseudosciences (telepathic communications,
| |the world saved by noble UFO pilots, ones future foretold by ones birthdate,
| |etc.).  Rather, the future depends on applying our knowledge to the problems
| |at hand with undiluted vigor.
| 
| While I agree that the future will not be based on wishfull thinking, I
| would be careful about automatically labelling everything that does not
| fit into the conventional model pseudoscience.

I agree.  There are various levels of acceptance of scientific
theories.  The case of the plate tectonics theory leaps to mind as a
non-conventional theory at the time it was devised which later became
part of the conventional view.

| Just like last time, the "clasical" theory is very powerful and compelling
| but there are a couple of pieces of evidence that could unravel the whole
| thing, start a whole new ball game.  Einstien disliked the uncertainty
| priciple so much that he kept trying to push it to the limits of absurdity.
| The amazing thing is that the results just kept getting more absurd,
| rather than finding anything inconsistent with quantum mechanics.
| 
| I'm not a physicist, so I can't adaquatly bring these arguments to their
| conclusion but consider:
| 
| The ERP paradox (Einstien, etc. I don't remember the other names, but
| 	it is the one about two particles originating from the same
| 	original particle, so they are constrained to have opposite
| 	spins, and therefore measuring one means the other must
| 	instantaniously have the correct spin.)
| 
| Bell's inequality, which implies:
| 	Quantum mechanics fails
| and/or	Objectivity fails
| and/or	Locality fails
| 
| Any one of these failing may mean the world is a lot stranger than
| originally thought.  There are holes that can cover almost any of
| the popular pseudosciences.  This is not proof, but it opens the
| door, and real experiments will eventually tell us something about
| what is going on.

I agree with you that, as we learn more of the makeup of the universe,
we learn how strange it really is.  This is the normal pursuit of
science, seeking explanations for the as-yet-unexplained.

| What is my point?  Only that a lot of what gets passed off as science
| is nothing but conventional dogma.  

No.  What is passed off as science is the "currently accepted" view of
the universe, as derived from theory and experiment, and filtered
through human frailty.  It is very hard for me to accept the word
"dogma" applied to science.  To me dogma implies belief despite
contrary evidence.  While an individual scientist may be dogmatic in
believing his/her own pet theory, Science as a whole tends to move in
the directions indicated by evidence.  This is NOT to say that the
movement is rapid, or that Truth is accepted as self evident.  Rather,
it just says that the weight of evidence will eventually overwhelm
resistance.

| When Timothy Leary was experimenting ...

I am not very knowledgeable about Leary's work, so I cannot comment on
it in clear conscience, but I can, perhaps, present a different view of
some of the conclusions you reach.

| ... According to the standard model, his experiments should have
| been repeated and either verified, or refuted.

Agreed.  I do not know if anyone did try to do so.

| Instead conventional
| wisdom says these drugs are dangerous, and cannot be used by anyone,
| not even a scientific investigator,

I am not sure that that is true.  I have seen a number of articles
dealing with legitimate research into very potent drugs (hallucinogens,
barbiturates, etc.) for the treatment of a number of disorders.  It IS
recognized by the researchers that the drugs are dangerous and must be
handled carefully.  It IS NOT the view that NO-ONE can work with them.

| and everyone thinks Leary is nothing
| but a drugged out crackpot.

Certainly "everyone" loses respect for someone who becomes addicted to
the drugs he is researching, especially when "everyone" knows how
dangerous they are to the well-being and sanity of the drug user.  If
the researcher becomes this intimately involved with his work, then the
rest of the world is justified in viewing the results of that work with
some skepticism.  Is Leary a "drugged out crackpot?"  I do not know,
but I do view his pronouncements much more skeptically than I would if
he did not partake of his own medicine.

				Rich Strebendt
				...!ihnp4![iwsl6|ihlpe|ihaxa]!res

glg@sfsup.UUCP (G.Gleason) (03/20/88)

In article <2762@ihlpe.ATT.COM> res@ihlpe.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt, AT&T-DSG @ Indian Hill West) writes:
>In article <2885@sfsup.UUCP>, glg@sfsup.UUCP (G.Gleason) writes:
>(in a very well stated posting)
>| In article <2724@ihlpe.ATT.COM> res@ihlpe.ATT.COM (Rich Strebendt, AT&T-DSG @ Indian Hill West) writes:

>| What is my point?  Only that a lot of what gets passed off as science
>| is nothing but conventional dogma.  

>No.  What is passed off as science is the "currently accepted" view of
>the universe, as derived from theory and experiment, and filtered
>through human frailty.  It is very hard for me to accept the word
>"dogma" applied to science.  To me dogma implies belief despite
>contrary evidence.  While an individual scientist may be dogmatic in
>believing his/her own pet theory, Science as a whole tends to move in
>the directions indicated by evidence.  This is NOT to say that the
>movement is rapid, or that Truth is accepted as self evident.  Rather,
>it just says that the weight of evidence will eventually overwhelm
>resistance.

Exactly my point, there is too much reliance on a "currently accepted"
view, which in effect slows down scientific investigations.  Too many
people just referencing other works for authority, that it often takes
decades for some errors to stop resurfacing after being retracted.

What I am saying is that the "currently accepted" theory is so well
taught that few "scientists" are creative enough to discover something
completely new, or self-confident enough to believe they could possibly
discover anything truely revolutionary.  We need to train our minds to
be more flexible, creative, etc.

>| When Timothy Leary was experimenting ...

>I am not very knowledgeable about Leary's work, so I cannot comment on
>it in clear conscience, but I can, perhaps, present a different view of
>some of the conclusions you reach.

Perhaps it would be better not to comment if you are not knowledgeable.

>| ... According to the standard model, his experiments should have
>| been repeated and either verified, or refuted.

>Agreed.  I do not know if anyone did try to do so.

>| Instead conventional
>| wisdom says these drugs are dangerous, and cannot be used by anyone,
>| not even a scientific investigator,

>I am not sure that that is true.  I have seen a number of articles
>dealing with legitimate research into very potent drugs (hallucinogens,
>barbiturates, etc.) for the treatment of a number of disorders.  It IS
>recognized by the researchers that the drugs are dangerous and must be
>handled carefully.  It IS NOT the view that NO-ONE can work with them.

I would not base an oppinion on a few articles.  I sure you are aware
that there is a lot of dis-information out on the topic of drugs, so
a deeper investigation is warranted.

>| and everyone thinks Leary is nothing
>| but a drugged out crackpot.

>Certainly "everyone" loses respect for someone who becomes addicted to
>the drugs he is researching, especially when "everyone" knows how
>dangerous they are to the well-being and sanity of the drug user.  If
>the researcher becomes this intimately involved with his work, then the
>rest of the world is justified in viewing the results of that work with
>some skepticism.  Is Leary a "drugged out crackpot?"  I do not know,
>but I do view his pronouncements much more skeptically than I would if
>he did not partake of his own medicine.

You provide a perfect example of what I am talking about.  You don't
know anything about the facts, and you're calling someone you don't
know anything about an addict.  You're comment about what "everyone"
knows is in the same catagory.  Leary report's zero "bad" trips because
of a positive set and setting, and that everyone was participating
because they wanted to.

There is a history of scientists trying things out on themselves.  In
this case it is probably a good idea for the researcher to have some
experience with the brain states he plans to induce it others.

Gerry Gleason

bwk@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Barry W. Kort) (03/22/88)

Timothy Leary did some interesting work on personality and behavior,
building on the foundations of Jung and Sullivan.  He has now begun
to popularize this work through the medium of the personal computer.

In collaboration with Electronic Arts, he has produced the Mind Mirror,
which provides an entertaining and informative introduction to personality
mapping.

Leary's credo is TFYQA -- Think for yourself, and question authority.
He is as provocative and fresh as ever.  Try the Mind Mirror, and
meet your future self.

--Barry Kort

todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) (03/23/88)

In article <27471@linus.UUCP>, bwk@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Barry W. Kort) writes:
> Timothy Leary did some interesting work on personality and behavior,

You bet, and on screwing up people's lives too.

> building on the foundations of Jung and Sullivan.  

And destroying the future of many people by advocating they use drugs.

> He has now begun
> to popularize this work through the medium of the personal computer.

Anything to make a buck, why not a book as well??

> Leary's credo is TFYQA --

Take Five Years (worth) of Quaaludes Annually 

> He is as provocative and fresh as ever.  Try the Mind Mirror, and
> meet your future self.

Yeah, I always wanted to meet my future self, defined by a binary stucture
put together by a man who messed up a great deal of people by advocating
they use such fantasticly healthy things like LSD-25.

Good choice, if I had been here at school the night he was here to promote
himself, I think I would have at least burned some of his books, just
to make him mad, then I would have asked him to pay my cousin's rehab bill
for the time he spent recovering from drug experimentation.
(yes this was due to the environment that T.L. helped create in the '60's)

Oh but you can't really tell adults what to do and what not to do, so Tim
is off the hook right? 

glg@sfsup.UUCP (G.Gleason) (03/23/88)

In article <27471@linus.UUCP> bwk@mbunix (Kort) writes:
>Leary's credo is TFYQA -- Think for yourself, and question authority.
>He is as provocative and fresh as ever.  Try the Mind Mirror, and
>meet your future self.
							    2
I havn't seen that accronym yet, but I like it, and also SMI LE,
which stands for Space Migration, Increased Intellegence, and
Life Extention, or something like that.

I have heard of Mind Mirror, and would like to check it out.  I
know it's available for apples, but a friend of mine was having
trouble finding it.  Is it available for any other machines?
Does anyone know where to order it?

Gerry Gleason

jsb@actnyc.UUCP (The Invisible Man) (03/23/88)

In article <1290@uop.edu> todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) writes:
>In article <27471@linus.UUCP>, bwk@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Barry W. Kort) writes:
>> Timothy Leary did some interesting work on personality and behavior,

> [ some Leary-bashing deleted ]

>> He has now begun
>> to popularize this work through the medium of the personal computer.
>
>Anything to make a buck, why not a book as well??

Leary's drug phase in the 60's was not exactly an oportunistic career move.
Quite the opposite, he sacrificed a promising career for something he believed 
in.  The environment that T.L. helped create in the 60's was the opposite of
"Anything to make a buck".  That phrase properly belongs to the 80's and the
environment Ronald "Just say no" Reagan helped to create.
>
>> He is as provocative and fresh as ever.  Try the Mind Mirror, and
>> meet your future self.
>
>Yeah, I always wanted to meet my future self, defined by a binary stucture
>put together by a man who messed up a great deal of people by advocating
>they use such fantasticly healthy things like LSD-25.

As I remember it, Leary explained to people that the "set and setting" were
very important factors in an LSD-25 experience.  He did not advocate taking
LSD-25 for thrills.

>Good choice, if I had been here at school the night he was here to promote
>himself, I think I would have at least burned some of his books, just
>to make him mad, then I would have asked him to pay my cousin's rehab bill
>for the time he spent recovering from drug experimentation.
>(yes this was due to the environment that T.L. helped create in the '60's)

I doubt your cousin is recovering from LSD experimentation.  In fact, I
doubt he ever took it at all.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  T.L. never had much
good to say about heroin or quaaludes or the drugs being abused today. LSD
is not addictive.  Nor has it the potential for profit making that todays
street drugs have.

>Oh but you can't really tell adults what to do and what not to do, so Tim
>is off the hook right? 

I also must assume your cousin is not an adult, or, at least, that he bears
no responsibility for his drug use in your eyes.

This should probably be retitled and directed to different news groups.
Anyone know which? (we don't get 'alt' groups here)
-- 
			The check is in the e-mail

				jim (uunet!actnyc!jsb)

todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) (03/25/88)

In article <747@actnyc.UUCP>, jsb@actnyc.UUCP (The Invisible Man) writes:
> In article <1290@uop.edu> todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) writes:

> Leary's drug phase in the 60's was not exactly an oportunistic career move.
> Quite the opposite, he sacrificed a promising career for something he believed 
> in.  

Counter-cultural crap??  How about if I believe in nuclear weapons,
so I go out and build one, is that ok too??

> The environment that T.L. helped create in the 60's was the opposite of
> "Anything to make a buck".  

It was opposite of anything period.  If the "establishment" had an opinion,
he had a counter opinion.  

> That phrase properly belongs to the 80's and the
> environment Ronald "Just say no" Reagan helped to create.

Now you would'nt be trying to imply I am a child of the '80's would you?
You would be grossly mistaken.

> As I remember it, Leary explained to people that the "set and setting" were
> very important factors in an LSD-25 experience.  He did not advocate taking
> LSD-25 for thrills.

But he did advocate taking it, and other things as well.


> I doubt your cousin is recovering from LSD experimentation.  In fact, I
> doubt he ever took it at all.  
> Correct me if I'm wrong.  

Ok, you are wrong, he took LSD, and other things in his environment,
trying to be like his older friends, who were into all sorts of crap.

> T.L. never had much
> good to say about heroin or quaaludes or the drugs being abused today. LSD
> is not addictive.  Nor has it the potential for profit making that todays
> street drugs have.

So this makes LSD irrelevant to the issue??

> I also must assume your cousin is not an adult, or, at least, that he bears
> no responsibility for his drug use in your eyes.

He bears responsibility, and so do his friends, as well as those who
taught him that such poison is acceptable.  You seem to not be real
bothered by this idea.

> This should probably be retitled and directed to different news groups.
> Anyone know which? 

How about /dev/null, at least tim will be there.

> (we don't get 'alt' groups here)

Neither do we.

glg@sfsup.UUCP (G.Gleason) (03/27/88)

In article <747@actnyc.UUCP> jsb@actnyc.UUCP (The Invisible Man) writes:
>In article <1290@uop.edu> todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) writes:
>>In article <27471@linus.UUCP>, bwk@mitre-bedford.ARPA (Barry W. Kort) writes:
>>> Timothy Leary did some interesting work on personality and behavior,

>> [ some Leary-bashing deleted ]

I guess I should have expected exactly this kind of attack from someone
who obviously knows nothing about the subject matter.  I hesitated to
even mention his name for exactly this reason, but this only reinforces
the point I was making by bringing his name up.  Because he is infamous,
for whatever reason, most people automatically discount what he has to
say without even examining the ideas.  Some are willing to post this
kind of trash as if they had the confidence that "everybody knows" X
is a nut, drug addict, or whatever, and therefore anything he says is
not worth considering.

Why don't you try thinking for yourself next time.

>>> He has now begun
>>> to popularize this work through the medium of the personal computer.

>>Anything to make a buck, why not a book as well??

>Leary's drug phase in the 60's was not exactly an oportunistic career move.
>Quite the opposite, he sacrificed a promising career for something he believed 
>in.  The environment that T.L. helped create in the 60's was the opposite of
>"Anything to make a buck".  That phrase properly belongs to the 80's and the
>environment Ronald "Just say no" Reagan helped to create.

In view of the ultimate consequences of his drug "activism," it clearly
was not oportunistic.  I wonder what, if anything, he would do differently
with the bennefit of hindsight.  Most people do not realize that there
was no hysteric atmosphere surounding "psychedelic" drugs when he began
his work.  At the time, he and many other researchers considered themselves
to be doing legitimate research.  The subsequent hysteria, prohibition,
and infamy almost smells of a conspiracy, but why?

>>> He is as provocative and fresh as ever.  Try the Mind Mirror, and
>>> meet your future self.

>>Yeah, I always wanted to meet my future self, defined by a binary stucture
>>put together by a man who messed up a great deal of people by advocating
>>they use such fantasticly healthy things like LSD-25.

>As I remember it, Leary explained to people that the "set and setting" were
>very important factors in an LSD-25 experience.  He did not advocate taking
>LSD-25 for thrills.

No, he did not.  In fact, when asked about the use of drugs at later dates,
he indicated that he was not interested in the drugs themselves.  He always
saw them as tools, not an end in themselves.

>>Good choice, if I had been here at school the night he was here to promote
>>himself, I think I would have at least burned some of his books, just
>>to make him mad, then I would have asked him to pay my cousin's rehab bill
>>for the time he spent recovering from drug experimentation.
>>(yes this was due to the environment that T.L. helped create in the '60's)

>I doubt your cousin is recovering from LSD experimentation.  In fact, I
>doubt he ever took it at all.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  T.L. never had much
>good to say about heroin or quaaludes or the drugs being abused today. LSD
>is not addictive.  Nor has it the potential for profit making that todays
>street drugs have.

This is hard to say, from my reading of his autobiography, _Flashbacks_,
it is possible that many so-called "bad-trips" were the result of negative
"set" produced by the drug hysteria itself.  He reports zero "bad-trips"
as a result of their work with controlled set and setting.  Also, its not
a particularly good idea to "play" with this type of thing, a little like
practicing psycotherapy without any training, there is potential for
damage as with any improperly used tool.

As to other drugs, you are correct.  In the book he recounts a brief
experimentation with heroin, and basically says that it is not useful
as a "mind-tool."  I use the word "experimentation" correctly, in the
research sense.  Leary among others takes the view that the researcher
must have first hand experience with his tools to understand what is
being produced (especially when subjective experience is involved).
This carries with it the ethic that you should not use treatments that
you would not be willing to apply to yourself.  I don't think there
would be as many inhumane treatments such as electro-shock therapy,
etc. if more scientists practiced this ethic.

>This should probably be retitled and directed to different news groups.
>Anyone know which? (we don't get 'alt' groups here)

Maybe, but it does continue the thread that originally started it.  Only
the Leary-bashing took the discussion off on this tangent.  If people
refrain from this type of thing, I don't see a reason to move it.

Gerry Gleason

lae@pedsga.UUCP (03/30/88)

In article <1295@uop.edu> todd@uop.UUCP writes:
>
>Counter-cultural crap??  How about if I believe in nuclear weapons,
>so I go out and build one, is that ok too??
>
>> That phrase properly belongs to the 80's and the
>> environment Ronald "Just say no" Reagan helped to create.
>
>Now you would'nt be trying to imply I am a child of the '80's would you?
>You would be grossly mistaken.
>
>Ok, you are wrong, he took LSD, and other things in his environment,
>trying to be like his older friends, who were into all sorts of crap.
>
>> I also must assume your cousin is not an adult, or, at least, that he bears
>> no responsibility for his drug use in your eyes.
>
>He bears responsibility, and so do his friends, as well as those who
>taught him that such poison is acceptable.  You seem to not be real
>bothered by this idea.
>

I walked into the middle of this exchange, so I hope this is relevant.

Hey, I'm sorry to hear about your cousin.  We've all lost somebody along
the way.  To drugs, to automobile accidents, to falls in the home, to
illness, to old age.  Sometimes to a living death among tubes and wires
in a sterile, cold house full of strangers...

Death is our ultimate destination, and there are many things to learn on
the way.  I chose LSD-25 to speed the learning process and I have never
regretted the things I discovered about myself.  Because LSD has always
been a positive experience for me, I simply cannot comprehend your
reference to it as "poison" except as a propagandistic metaphor.  I
think that this is why whoever-that-was stereotyped you as a child of
the '80s: because the '80s is full of Nancy *Just Say No* Reagan and
piss tests that get you fired if you take antihistamines.

Your cousin, I'm sure, bore the responsibility for his decisions.  He
made the decisions that were right for him, and if they happened to
destroy him, they were still his decisions.  I have always noticed
that certain personality types misuse any substance available, drive
like maniacs, perhaps are accident prone.  It bothers the heck out
of me when I see someone I care about is bent on self-destruction.
Their end doesn't bother me quite as much as the sudden tragedy--
the quiet one who buys it on the way to work one morning because
someone else wasn't paying attention.

The real question you must ask in making sense of it all is not 
"Why did his friends teach him that LSD is acceptable?" so much as
it is "Why did he pick those people to be his friends instead of
hanging around with the Young Republicans?"

Good luck to you.
-- 
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