chris@mimsy.UUCP (Chris Torek) (04/11/88)
>In article <472@flatline.UUCP> erict@flatline.UUCP (eric townsend) writes: >>Nit pick: "Calling a spade a spade" is a racist cliche'. In article <1294@uop.edu> todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) writes: >... the term comes from cards, not racism, (where it was later attributed to). Ah, but where did the *cards* come from? In fact the origin is not racist but classist. Swords (now Clubs) symbolised the nobility; Diamonds, the merchants; Cups (Hearts), the Priesthood, and of course, Spades, the working class: the farmers. What matters now is whether the term is perceived as racist by those who might perceive it as racist (a rather circular question, but that which is considered offensive has never been based on logic). -- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7163) Domain: chris@mimsy.umd.edu Path: uunet!mimsy!chris
gcf@actnyc.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) (04/12/88)
In article <11010@mimsy.UUCP> chris@mimsy.UUCP (Chris Torek) writes: }>In article <472@flatline.UUCP> erict@flatline.UUCP (eric townsend) writes: }>>Nit pick: "Calling a spade a spade" is a racist cliche'. }In article <1294@uop.edu> todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) writes: }>... the term comes from cards, not racism, (where it was later attributed to). }Ah, but where did the *cards* come from? }In fact the origin is not racist but classist. Swords (now Clubs) }symbolised the nobility; Diamonds, the merchants; Cups (Hearts), the }Priesthood, and of course, Spades, the working class: the farmers. This is not what my book* on the Tarot deck says. It says clubs derive from wands, and spades from swords. The former represent creative power, the latter force of any kind. Those who are enthused about the Tarot deck generally attribute its origins to a period long before the late middle ages, when the class system alluded to above was in operation in Europe. *One of Waite's.
mls@whutt.UUCP (SIEMON) (04/14/88)
In article <794@actnyc.UUCP>, gcf@actnyc.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) writes: > ... Those who are enthused > about the Tarot deck generally attribute its origins to a period long > before the late middle ages, when the class system alluded to above > was in operation in Europe. > Yep, and those who are enthused about astrology generally attribute its origins to ancient (like, millenially B.C.) Egypt. -- Michael L. Siemon contracted to AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!mhuxu!mls standard disclaimer
chris@mimsy.UUCP (Chris Torek) (04/14/88)
>In article <11010@mimsy.UUCP> I wrote: >}Ah, but where did the *cards* come from? >}In fact the origin is not racist but classist. [I deleted the various details] In article <794@actnyc.UUCP> gcf@actnyc.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) writes: >This is not what my book* on the Tarot deck says. It says clubs >derive from wands, and spades from swords. The former represent >creative power, the latter force of any kind. >*One of Waite's. I made a number of errors in <11010@mimsy.UUCP>, although the origin of the modern playing card (i.e., the reason we have the precise suits that we do) is indeed classist. The older symbolism may not have been so, but that which survives in the standard English decks is. (I had carefully refrained from mentioning Tarot cards to avoid digressing within the digression :-) .) I am not sure about the clubs-from-wands bit, but the spades-from- swords is rather likely. (If anyone cares, a bit more information can be found in _The_Straight_Dope_ by Cecil Adams. It may be in the `humour' section of your local bookstore, although it only halfway belongs there. A fun book, if not very deep. I may post the few paragraphs he has on the cards later.) >Those who are enthused about the Tarot deck generally attribute its >origins to a period long before the late middle ages .... Some claim the early Egyptians had them, although there is no real evidence for this, as far as I know. I would not trust any of Arthur Waite's claims without other corroboration; he was often more enthusiastic than accurate (somewhat like me :-) ). Various of his proclamations seem to contradict each other. What we do know is that the modern cards evolved from Tarot decks sometime around the 1500s and were more or less fixed by the 1800s (one can speculate here on the effect of widely available printing presses and leisure time in the expanding bourgeoise). -- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7163) Domain: chris@mimsy.umd.edu Path: uunet!mimsy!chris
jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Mr Jack Campin) (04/16/88)
In article <794@actnyc.UUCP> gcf@actnyc.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) writes: >This is not what my book* on the Tarot deck says (about the meanings of >card suits - jack) Those who are enthused >about the Tarot deck generally attribute its origins to a period long >before the late middle ages, when the class system alluded to above >was in operation in Europe. >*One of Waite's. Waite was lying, as usual. See Michael Dummett's "The Game of Tarot" for a detailed and scholarly account of the *real* story behind the Tarot deck. The "Egyptian" origin of the cards, and their "occult" significance, are a late 17th-century French fabrication. -- ARPA: jack%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk USENET: jack@cs.glasgow.uucp JANET:jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs useBANGnet: ...mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!jack Mail: Jack Campin, Computing Science Dept., Glasgow Univ., 17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, SCOTLAND work 041 339 8855 x 6045; home 041 556 1878
firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) (04/18/88)
In article <3060@whutt.UUCP> mls@whutt.UUCP (SIEMON) writes: >Yep, and those who are enthused about astrology generally attribute its >origins to ancient (like, millenially B.C.) Egypt. Ah, but if we assume that the astrological zodiac originally bore some resemblence to the actual stars, then its origin can be guessed pretty well. When was Aries really March 22 .. April 21? In about 200 BC, give or take a couple of centuries. That would make it a piece of Hellenistic syncretism (which sounds likely to me, I confess)
mls@whutt.UUCP (SIEMON) (04/19/88)
In article <5101@aw.sei.cmu.edu+, firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes: + In article <3060@whutt.UUCP> mls@whutt.UUCP (SIEMON) writes: + + >Yep, and those who are enthused about astrology generally attribute its + >origins to ancient (like, millenially B.C.) Egypt. + + Ah, but if we assume that the astrological zodiac originally bore + some resemblence to the actual stars, then its origin can be guessed + pretty well. When was Aries really March 22 .. April 21? In about + 200 BC, give or take a couple of centuries. That would make it a + piece of Hellenistic syncretism (which sounds likely to me, I confess) You have it reasonably well pegged. First evidence of anything much like what we call astrology (as distinct from Mesopotamian omen reading) is from shortly after 300 B.C., and it developed rapidly from there. See Otto Neugebauer's works (titles escape me at the moment, but anything of his is interesting.) -- Michael L. Siemon contracted to AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!mhuxu!mls standard disclaimer
gcf@actnyc.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) (04/19/88)
In article <3060@whutt.UUCP> mls@whutt.UUCP (SIEMON) writes: } In article <794@actnyc.UUCP>, gcf@actnyc.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) writes: } > ... Those who are enthused } > about the Tarot deck generally attribute its origins to a period long } > before the late middle ages... } > } Yep, and those who are enthused about astrology generally attribute its } origins to ancient (like, millenially B.C.) Egypt. Many ancient civilizations were _known_ to practice a combination of astronomy and astrology, of which they left detailed records, and, I am told, some usable observations. But I don't think there is any direct record of either Tarot cards and images, or the related Cabala, before the Middle Ages. Of course, those who are _really_ enthused about the Tarot attribute its origin to Hermes Trismegistus.
todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) (04/22/88)
In article <5101@aw.sei.cmu.edu>, firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes: > In article <3060@whutt.UUCP> mls@whutt.UUCP (SIEMON) writes: > Ah, but if we assume that the astrological zodiac originally bore > some resemblence to the actual stars... Well, you are going to have to look into various calendar systems. And remember that the Zodiacal stuff goes back as far as Enoch talking to, er.. "the watchers" (nuther subject) You ever read "The Sirius Mystery?" --a start on the concepts of questions pertaining to original information and knowledge. a start.
todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) (04/22/88)
In article <3077@whutt.UUCP>, mls@whutt.UUCP (SIEMON) writes: > In article <5101@aw.sei.cmu.edu+, firth@sei.cmu.edu (Robert Firth) writes: > + In article <3060@whutt.UUCP> mls@whutt.UUCP (SIEMON) writes: > + Ah, but if we assume that the astrological zodiac originally bore > + some resemblence to the actual stars, then its origin can be guessed > + pretty well. When was Aries really March 22 .. April 21? In about You must remember that the original Zodaic did not contain all it does today.. and hence you must look at what was the oldest record.. and its intent. > You have it reasonably well pegged. First evidence of anything much like > what we call astrology (as distinct from Mesopotamian omen reading) is from > shortly after 300 B.C., and it developed rapidly from there. See Otto > Neugebauer's works (titles escape me at the moment, but anything of his > is interesting.) Not so, the usage goes back to the times of several thousand B.C. If I must, I will have to go home and start posting from my rather unusual library of science, psuedo-science, archaeology, history, etc. etc.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- + uop!todd@uunet.uu.net + + cogent!uop!todd@lll-winken.arpa + + {backbone}!ucbvax!ucdavis!uop!todd + -----------------------------------------------------------------------
mls@whutt.UUCP (SIEMON) (04/25/88)
In article <1439@uop.edu>, todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) writes: > If I must, I will have to go home and start posting from my rather > unusual library of science, psuedo-science, archaeology, history, > Yes, you must :-) Babylonian prognostications based on (linear approximation) phenomena calculations ("phenomena" include rising/setting times, eclipses, and such like) go back into (but not far into) the 2nd millenium B.C. If you care to call omen reading (for success in war, etc., directed at the ruler of a country, with reference entirely to events of nationwide significance) astrology, you can make a case for it extending back to then. And if you get thoroughly vague about "people responding to regularities in the sky" as being astrology, you can of course "find" astrology in many cultures stretching back to megalithic Europe. BUT the notion of an astronomical configuration corresponding to an individual and in some sense following that individual through life as a determinant in the individual's fortune (I've been non-sexist here; actually all the original cases are for males) goes back to circa 300 B.C. -- the first one known is on a mountainside carving glorifying one of the Seleucids (Antiochos umpty-umpth.) The classical form of the horoscope developed very rapidly in the next 100-200 years. Read Neugebauer for the data (and especially for the fascinating story of the development of Mesopotamian astronomy.) -- Michael L. Siemon contracted to AT&T Bell Laboratories ihnp4!mhuxu!mls standard disclaimer
livesey@sun.uucp (Jon Livesey) (04/27/88)
In article <3103@whutt.UUCP>, mls@whutt.UUCP (SIEMON) writes: > In article <1439@uop.edu>, todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) writes: > > BUT the notion of an astronomical configuration corresponding to an individual > and in some sense following that individual through life as a determinant in > the individual's fortune (I've been non-sexist here; actually all the original > cases are for males) goes back to circa 300 B.C. -- the first one known is on > a mountainside carving glorifying one of the Seleucids (Antiochos umpty-umpth.) > The classical form of the horoscope developed very rapidly in the next 100-200 > years. Read Neugebauer for the data (and especially for the fascinating story > of the development of Mesopotamian astronomy.) > Neugebauer O. "The Exact Science in Antiguity" Dover 1969. Neugebauer O. "A History of Ancient Mathematical Astronomy" Springer-Verlag 1975. Leaving aside the motivations, one of the most striking aspects of Babylonian astronomy was the primitive nature of the tools employed. They seem to have made do with the sun-stick [gnomon]; an upright stick whose shadow, which one can measure on successive days, traces out a projection of the locus of the Sun's path. If you sit in a churchyard, you can imagine that you feel the motion of the Earth, by carefully watching the movement of the shadow of the spire of the church. Even if you don't do very exact measurement, you can catch the extreme positions of the Sun's shadow each day, to tell noon, and the extreme positions for the year, which are at the Equinoxes. Ptolemy(*) calculated the diameter of the Earth (wrongly) based on the lengths of shadows cast by a gnomon at Alexandria, compared to one farther South at (I think) Suez. After a few years' experience with a gnomon, you can forecast planting season, and so on. Identical sun-sticks are in use in 'stone age' societies to this day, for example, Borneo. There are ample reasons to do simple practical astronomy, without dragging in astrology, although the astrologers will always be on the fringes somewhere. It's also true that you can use the night-time analogue of the gnomon, a hole to squint through, and a vertical shaft, to make sightings of stars. However, you only want to track a few objects, and the obvious ones will be the Moon, Venus, and some others. Alternatively, you can just track major events which need no instruments at all, rises, settings, and eclipses. To get precision, you have to track the same objects for a very long time, in the (perhaps unconscious) hope that the various systematic, as well as random, errors will cancel out. That's what the Babylonians did systematically from around 700bc onwards. Fortunately, long-lived empires encourage record-keeping, and even when the Babylonian Empire fell, first to Cyrus the Great, around 550bc, and later to Alexander, around 330bc, the conqueror appears to have encouraged bureaucratic, religious, and scientific continuity, for political reasons. (Alexander did the same in Egypt, of course) One way or another, records survived, and observations continued to be made. Around 150ad, Ptolemy(*) said he had records of eclipses back to 747bc. Observations over such a long period were enough to allow the development of his deterministic (but incorrect) theory of planetary motion, based on epicycles. As well as eclipses, the Babylonians collected observations of Venus accurate enough to allow dating of earlier records back to around 2000bc. The Babylonians themselves might not have been able to carry out this dating over very long periods since they had no very good model of the movement of astronomical bodies, yet astronomical prediction is always an attractive goal, and the next few hundred years of astronomy saw the development of such models, mainly by the Greeks, the Arabs, and finally Western Europe. For an introduction to the development of increasingly sophisticated Greek cosmologies, leading up to the present day, you can do worse than the following book, which is a very readable introduction: Durham F. and Purrington R. D. "Frame of the Universe" Columbia University Press 1983. (*) Ptolemy the Astronomer (Claudius Ptolemaeus, 85-165ad), who worked during the reign of Hadrian, an Emperor who was an enthusiast of Hellenic science and culture, and who visited Greece in 125ad and Alexandria in 130ad, *not* Ptolemy the King, Alexander's heir (367)-305-285bc, and Cleopatra's ancestor, who helped Alexander found Alexandria, and later encouraged the development of Hellenic culture and science in Egypt, and may have founded the famous museum and library. When Alexander died in 322bc, his Empire, after a short interregnum, broke up into three parts; Macedonia itself, where his family lived, but not for long since they were 'liberated' by Rome around 150bc, Egypt, which fell to General (King) Ptolemy, who took the precaution of hijacking Alexander's body, and the Seleucids, mentioned above, who reigned in Asia Minor, and erected a great empire under Antiochus III, afterwards making the mistake of fighting Rome for the remains of Macedonia, losing to Scipio Africanus and his brother Scipio Asiagenus at Magnesia, and eventually losing their independence in sad dribs and drabs under Antiochus IV. There were some rather pathetic minor characters, too, like Demetrios Poliorketes 294-288bc, who mainly tried to arrange alliances with the big boys. Demetrios (The Besieger of cities) thought of himself as a great military genius, and Alexander's reincarnation, but all that is left of him is a few coins, one of which sits on my desk.
lavin@athena.mit.edu (Anne R LaVin) (04/28/88)
In article <51010@sun.uucp> livesey@sun.uucp (Jon Livesey) writes: > > [discussion of gnomons, Babylonian observations deleted] > > As well as eclipses, the Babylonians collected observations of >Venus accurate enough to allow dating of earlier records back to >around 2000bc. The Babylonians themselves might not have been able to >carry out this dating over very long periods since they had no very >good model of the movement of astronomical bodies, yet astronomical >prediction is always an attractive goal, and the next few hundred >years of astronomy saw the development of such models, mainly by the >Greeks, the Arabs, and finally Western Europe. > > [more discussion of later history deleted] > There are, also, surviving records of tabulations of positions of the other naked-eye visible planets. We (the students in a class I took on Babylonian and Greek astronomy) translated a cuneiform tablet which contained the postions of the first stationary points of Jupiter over several hundred years. The tablet was written near the middle of the period it covered, and thus contained both observational data and calculted predictions, as well as some text that explained the calculation method. (The professor supplied the translation for the text, as none of us read ancient Babylonian, except for numbers and zodiacal signs.) The positions were given in terms of degrees and minutes of arc around the zodiac. This zodiac was divided into twelve signs that corresponded pretty closely to their current divisions (I think). I can't remember the date of the table off the top of my head, but I can look it up if anyone's interested. One of the points stressed in the course was that as far as we know, the Babylonians didn't make any attempts to model the movements of the stars or planets *physically*, just mathematically, along the lines of "if it (the planet) is at this point in the sky now, where will it be tomorrow or a hundred years from now?". The Greeks, on the other hand, spent most of their time trying to figure out what physical system would account for the observed phenomema, and came up with all sorts of amazing Earth-centered systems. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anne R. LaVin |"Say, Pooh, why aren't YOU busy?" I said. lavin@athena.mit.edu |"Because it's a nice day," said Pooh. MIT Aero & Astro |"Yes, but---" (617) 253-0911 |"Why ruin it?" he said.