cs4l3az@maccs.UUCP (....Jose) (04/12/88)
I'm looking for some information on Transendental Meditation, from people who know something about it.... both PRO and CON.... EG: - is it a relgion, a philosopy, or what? - what kind of psychological/physiological support exists for it (or against it) I saw one of those late night "you don't have to be such a loser, and here's how we can help you justify your pitiful existance with our financial/religous/investment/lifestyle/hair-replacment/ exersize (take your pick) program" shows on TM... And it sounded to good to be true... (with lots of "scientific" talk and nifty graphs)..... ....Jose "Hmmm.... We Wonder" Hachezero ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fighting for Truth, Justice ....Jose Hachezero and anything else that might Department of Biochemistry seem like fun at the time.." McMaster University cs4l3az@maccs.uucp ------------------------------------------------------------------------
gush@tektronix.TEK.COM (Gus Hellman) (04/12/88)
Try reading The Relaxation Response by Herbert Benson. Benson was/is Assoc- iate Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and Director of the Hypertension Section of Boston's Beth Israel Hospital( at least that's what the book jacket says.) Benson had wanted to find out what happens when a person practices TM. He studied a group of meditators and the book lays out what he found including a method that does the same thing as he says TM does. gus
hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu (|-|ugh) (04/13/88)
I once saw a TM honcho being interviewed on a late-night talk show. He was talking about mantras, and said that when you start doing TM they put a lot of time and effort into finding a unique mantra specially for you. If you chant the wrong mantra you will supposedly screw yourself up. The guy told a story about someone who chanted "Coca-cola" as a mantra with dire consequences. Some years later I heard that in fact the TM organization only has 9 stock mantras that they assign based on what age group you're in. I'm sure you could chant anything you wanted and it wouldn't make any difference one way or the other. Hugh Dunne | UUCP: ..{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne Dept. of Math. | Phone: | ARPA: hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu Univ. of Arizona | +1 602 621 4766 | Bitnet: hdunne@arizrvax Tucson AZ 85721 | +1 602 621 6893 | Internet: hdunne@rvax.ccit.arizona.edu
gcf@actnyc.UUCP (Gordon Fitch) (04/13/88)
In article <549@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu> hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu (|-|ugh) writes: > ..... I'm sure you could >chant anything you wanted and it wouldn't make any difference one way or the >other. While the TM establishment may well take a trivializing attitude towards mantras, sound manifestly affects people on many levels, as anyone who experiences music or poetry knows. Thus, western religions have mantras like the Rosary (a somewhat extended mantra, but a cycle of sound and speech nevertheless.) So I think what a person chanted might make a considerable difference. But that person could evolve her or his own mantra far better than someone else, through meditation and experimentation. "There aint no guru who can look through your eyes." (J. Lennon) ....uunet!actnyc!gcf
hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) (04/14/88)
In article <1126@maccs.UUCP> cs4l3az@maccs.UUCP (....Jose) writes: > > I'm looking for some information on Transendental Meditation, >from people who know something about it.... both PRO and CON.... > > EG: - is it a relgion, a philosopy, or what? > - what kind of psychological/physiological support exists > for it (or against it) > > I saw one of those late night "you don't have to be such >a loser, and here's how we can help you justify your pitiful existance >with our financial/religous/investment/lifestyle/hair-replacment/ >exersize (take your pick) program" shows on TM... And it sounded to good to >be true... (with lots of "scientific" talk and nifty graphs)..... I got dragged into the world of Transcendental Meditation long ago when I was living in England. One of the first things I found out is the people running the organization consider the United States to be the richest country in the world. Therefore, their fees here are 100 times higher than in most other countries. We're supposed to be subsidizing the less fortunate. (The whole initiation procedure cost me 5 pounds sterling in 1974 -- then about $12. I think it's up to $400 here, but haven't checked recently). Whether it's a philosophy or religion is open to debate and pretty much irrelevant unless you're seriously attached to some other religion. What they do, after minor ceremony, is give you a mantra -- a secret word, in Hindi I think, supposedly chosen uniquely for you. You're supposed to meditate by focusing on repeating your mantra for 20 minutes, twice a day. This is supposed to engender a process of "unstressing", releasing all the tensions built up in your mind and body. The mantra is deliberately intended to be meaningless so you won't be distracted by its meaning, hence the use of Hindi. Psychologically, there is some evidence that the technique is useful for relaxation and reducing stress. However, no relation has been found between the nature of the mantra and the degree of effectiveness. In other words, you'd do just as well to say "Coca Cola" or "wugglyump" to yourself for 20 minutes, twice a day, and save the $400. My personal experience was that, at first, the process gave me headaches. I was told this is normal and usually stops after the first week, which it did. Thereafter, I found the experience was indeed restful, but didn't seem to have any other significant effect. I eventually gave it up. Several friends of mine continued with it for years with no outward changes that I could detect. (Obviously, they found it beneficial). In my opionion, for what it's worth, TM is harmless at worst and a useful relaxation technique at best. I wouldn't spend $400 on it. Your mileage may vary. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, hollombe@TTI.COM) Illegitimati Nil Citicorp(+)TTI Carborundum 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 452-9191, x2483 Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!hollombe
bitter@ttidca.TTI.COM (Mark Bitter) (04/14/88)
I know this isn't exactly the right place, but I can't resist: Q. Why did the guru refuse Novacaine? A. Because he wanted to transcend dental medication. -- Mark Bitter (bitter@ttidca.TTI.COM) Citicorp/TTI 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 452-9191, x2425 Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun|philabs|psivax|trwrb}!ttidca!bitter
jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Mr Jack Campin) (04/16/88)
Expires: Sender: Followup-To: Keywords: In article <1126@maccs.UUCP> cs4l3az@maccs.UUCP (....Jose) writes: > I'm looking for some information on Transendental Meditation, >from people who know something about it.... both PRO and CON.... TM is a pyramid selling racket. The "secret knowledge" bit is hogwash; full instructions on how to do it are in Lawrence LeShan's book "How To Meditate", for about one-twentieth of the cost of "instruction" from the Maharishi's organization. (I was told this by ex-TMers). Their claim to unique effectiveness, beyond reading a manual, is based on the further wrinkle that the mantra the instructor gives you is said to be specially selected for your personal use; you are forbidden to tell anyone else what it is. (TMers actually swap mantras all the time). In fact the sole dterminant of what mantra you get is your age (in decades) and sex; they are names of Hindu deities. And this is one bit even they don't have the nerve to claim to have tested - i.e. there has been no study comparing the effects of TM-like meditation with randomly chosen mantras versus the officially approved product. They also claim to teach advanced practitioners how to levitate. I have heard that these levitation sessions consist of roomfuls of people making squatting bunnyhops on cushions. The Maharishi's latest product line is a "Unified Field Theory". I would be mildly curious to know what this is but have no intention of spending time or money finding out. -- ARPA: jack%cs.glasgow.ac.uk@nss.cs.ucl.ac.uk USENET: jack@cs.glasgow.uucp JANET:jack@uk.ac.glasgow.cs useBANGnet: ...mcvax!ukc!cs.glasgow.ac.uk!jack Mail: Jack Campin, Computing Science Dept., Glasgow Univ., 17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, SCOTLAND work 041 339 8855 x 6045; home 041 556 1878
jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (James W. Meritt) (04/18/88)
Trans means across dental means teeth meditation is thinking so transdental meditation is thinking across your teeth!!! Disclaimer: Individuals have opinions, organizations have policy. Therefore, these opinions are mine and not any organizations! Q.E.D. jwm@aplvax.jhuapl.edu 128.244.65.5
doug_rands_merritt@cup.portal.com (04/20/88)
You might want to see "The Nature of Human Consciousness" edited by Robert E. Ornstein (c) 1973. Among many other topics, it includes an EEG study of Zen meditation, which appears to me to be essentially the same thing as Transcendental Meditation. There are other, more direct EEG studies of TM but I don't have the references handy. I originally got references to the scientific literature simply by asking the TM people themselves (there's a TM center in just about every major city, as far as I know). The whole point of the technique is to achieve relaxation, but of to a more complete and extreme point than the usual techniques derived in Western tradition. There is a lot of mystic airy-fairy stuff associated with the ultimate state of mental relaxation, which they call "Cosmic Consciousness", and which appears to be identical to similar terms in other mystic traditions. However, personal experience tells me there's nothing mystical whatsoever about this state. After following their technique faithfully for six months (around 1973 or so), I experienced the symptoms that they described to be associated with "Cosmic Consciousness". All of these symptoms (bad word for it, but never mind) I found to be very positive, beneficial and generally desirable, but none contradicted any scientific principles, even though the experience was decidedly out of the ordinary. The subjective experience was of *extreme* calm, clarity of mind, self control, clarity and intensity of perception, a general feeling of benevolence and humor directed towards the world at large and people in particular, a feeling that the world was a loving and nurturing environment, etc. There were some more objective things, too. I found that people's responses to comments and actions became extremely obvious and easy to predict...I'd know what they'd say in response to my comment, and I'd be right, word for word. You could still call this subjective, if you like, since I can't prove it. Doesn't matter. Some people would claim that the above constituted telepathy or precognition or some such similar crap. To me it just seemed to be a matter of normal common sense reasoning carried out much more effectively than usual. Similarly, in science class, the teacher would start a problem on the blackboard, and get to a hairy calculation, and ask students to figure it out on their (then-newfangled) calculators. I found I could somehow guess the answer, correct to 5 decimal places, while people fiddled around with their calculators for another minute or two. This seemed pretty eerie, but it's not necessary to postulate anything mystic. This kind of thing is called "hypercognition", and it isn't especially well understood, but there are a lot of instances in the psychological literature of people pulling off mental feats effortlessly and without awareness of mechanism. Lightning calculation and eidetic memory ("photographic memory") are similar examples of eerie but non-paranormal phenomena. Anyway, just meditating is not guaranteed to get you into this state. It's almost a precondition, but it's not sufficient. They don't teach the rest of it, probably because the people in the organization (most of whom are clearly *not* in this state) don't really *know* what it takes to get there. I've known quite a number of people who have practiced TM for many years, and though they found it relaxing and generally beneficial, never hit this state of "Cosmic Consciousness". I might have gotten luc because I augmented TM with posthypnotic suggestions aimed at achieving exactly the state I'd read about... I was trying to speed up the process of getting to "Cosmic Consciousness". It seems to have worked. Some people would claim that I was just deluding myself, but what the hell, it was a very pleasurable state, with no negative side effects. It disappeared when I (A) stopped meditating regularly and (B) began drinking and such regularly [ah, those wild high school days]. Doug Merritt sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt
jboggs@inco.UUCP (John Boggs) (04/21/88)
In article <253@aplcomm.UUCP>, jwm@stdc.jhuapl.edu (James W. Meritt) writes: > > Trans means across > dental means teeth > meditation is thinking > > so > > transdental meditation is thinking across your teeth!!! > I've heard, through a similar interpretation of the word's components, that it means: Talking over your head while putting the bite on you. -- John Boggs McDonnell Douglas - Inco, Inc. McLean, Virginia, USA
davel@pixar.UUCP (David Longerbeam) (04/21/88)
[ Opening Disclaimer: I am not now nor have I ever been a practioner of TM. What follows is personal opinion based on my own meditation practice (not TM). ] TM is not a philisophy or a religion, but a pracitce. It is a simple mantra meditation, based on any mantra-style meditation that is practiced by thousands if not millions of people in the Indian Subcontinent, Tibet, and the Orient. (Mantra-style meditation does not seem to be quite so popular in Southeast Asia.) However, all meditation taught in the East is derivative of religious practices, especially Hindu and Buddhist practice. Both of these religions espouse a particular world view and life-goal that lend themselves particularly well to using meditation as an expedient device in one's religious practice. I would think that if one follows any meditation practice one would eventually be exposed to the world- view with which it's associated. I have practiced both mantra and other meditation, and I definitely find personal benefit from this practice. The benefits include greater awareness, feeling of well-being, sensitivity to others, mental clarity, increased capacity for feeling joy, increased concentration and relaxation. It can also increase one's sensitivity to and appreciation of spiritual matters. These, I believe, are some of the same benefits advertised for TM. If you don't want to shell out the money for the TM training, then I suggest you look in the yellow pages under "meditation instruction" for alternatives. By going to a Hindu or Buddhist center, I'm sure that you would be exposed to more religious talk, which you may or may not be interested in. TM seems, at least at first, to have a more secular approach. I just don't believe that there's anything special about the practice of TM, as mantra practice is a very simple to teach and simple to practice technique. For this reason, it is often given as a begninning practice to many meditation students. In particular, it can help build one's powers of concentration. This is not meant to imply that mantra is not also practiced by experienced meditators. -- David Longerbeam || Any opinions expressed are Pixar || those of the author and not San Rafael, CA || necessarily of Pixar. ucbvax!pixar!davel
linda@cc.brunel.ac.uk (Linda Birmingham) (04/25/88)
>In my opionion, for what it's worth, TM is harmless at worst and a useful ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >relaxation technique at best. I wouldn't spend $400 on it. Your mileage ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >may vary. I went to a lecture given by a physician and yoga expert who said much the same thing. But....I am sure many people knowledgable in this area would totally disagree with the statement. I remember a quote " Of course it matters what you chant ! If you want to become a banana - chant banana !" I believe that the TM people may supply a meaningful mantra initially BUT that mantra will not suit you for the rest of your life. Linda.--
tracer@stb.UUCP (Jeff Boeing) (04/26/88)
Before you all go thronging off to Maharishi Iowa University in search of your Cosmic Consciousness through Transcendental Meditation, you should all know the flip side as well. Psychotherapists, particularly those who are sensitive to their patients, notice a considerably "thinned-out aura" coming from those patients who are chronic meditators. Those therapists who think the whole aura thing is a bunch of sheep's piddle tend to notice their meditative patients as being more "spacey" and less "in contact." TM, like hypnosis, is a means of getting into the so-called "alpha state," where most of the brainwaves lie in the alpha (6-12 Hz) frequency range. The right hemisphere of the brain operates most effectively at these alpha wavelengths. This allows a person who would otherwise be a left-brain zombie to tap into that other half of himself, realize his creative potential, et cetera. But on the other side of the coin, the left brain hemisphere operates primarily at beta ( > alpha) frequencies. While in alpha state, the left side of the brain is effectively "tuned out," or even turned off. Without the reasoning power of the (larger) left hemisphere to filter incoming information, the meditator/hypnotized person becomes extremely susceptible to suggestion. This is why hypnosis works so well. In the case of a chronic (read: daily) meditator, the left brain will begin to have problems coming back on. Some of the liveliness and sharpness-of-wit, as well as hard motivation, will begin to disappear. A healthy person needs BOTH sides of his or her brain operating at full capacity; it's not a "good right brain versus evil left brain" kind of a deal. One final word. The T.M. people have this whole mystical thing about giving you your "mantra," which they will usually charge you rather steeply for. Since a mantra is just something that has no specific meaning (to you) which you repeat over and over, I would think that any old syllable would do. Well, that's my two cents' worth. Have a nice day. -- Jeff Boeing (which is not my real name) | ...!uunet!stb.uucp!tracer ------------------------------------------|---------------------------- DISCLAIMER: YES! Everything I write ABSOLUTELY reflects the opinions of my employers DOWN TO THE LAST LETTER! Nyaah!
daveh@phred.UUCP (Dave Hampton) (04/27/88)
In article <995@crete.cs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@cs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes: >The Maharishi's latest product line is a "Unified Field Theory". I would be >mildly curious to know what this is but have no intention of spending time >or money finding out. A year ago, when I was working for a group which makes EEG Mapping devices, we got a call from the folks at MIU in the midwest (the Maharishi International University). They were preparing for a big demonstration of levitation on the fourth of July of last year, in which they were going to show the world press how they could levitate. They were interested in measuring brain-wave coherence during flight as a way of "objectively" demonstrating the altered mental state. We sent a mapping unit out to Washington, DC, for the demo, and I later saw the result on the evening news and in Newsweek. Essentially, while in a cross-legged position, they pushed down hard with their knees and popped into the air briefly. (This made it very hard to keep the electrodes on; I don't think that the EEG portion of the demo went very well...). I talked with the researcher at the University afterwards, and he said it was a great success, because (1) The theory that they used predicted that they woould hop as a prelude to flying, and (2) They actually were flying (levitating) for a moment during the hop. I try to be open-minded about things, but from what I saw and what I read in the scientific reprints that they sent, I'm not nearly convinced... -- Dave Hampton -- Reply to: uiucuxc!tikal!phred!daveh {Dave Hampton} Addr: Research Division, Physio-Control Corp. P.O. Box 97006 Redmond, WA 98073-9706
doug-merritt@cup.portal.com (04/28/88)
Jack Campin writes: >TM is a pyramid selling racket. Inaccurate. There is no multilevel sales; it's direct from the organization to the customer. (Unless they've made recent changes???) Whether it's a "racket" depends on whether they deliver what they claim to, doesn't it? And I haven't heard *that* disputed...they *do* teach you to meditate. Secondary points about "secret knowledge" strike me as relatively unimportant: >The "secret knowledge" bit is hogwash; full >instructions on how to do it are in Lawrence LeShan's book "How To >Meditate", for about one-twentieth of the cost of "instruction" from >the Maharishi's organization. (I was told this by ex-TMers). Very true. That doesn't make it a racket, though...consider painting. There are expensive classes, and you can also learn from cheap books. It seems clear that they put some window dressing on their course for the sake of marketing, but hey, this is America, wake up. Companies do the same for aspirin..."our aspirin is uniquely perfect". Wrong, generic aspirin is just as good. > And this is one bit even they don't have the nerve to >claim to have tested - i.e. there has been no study comparing the effects of >TM-like meditation with randomly chosen mantras versus the officially >approved product. Actually, it has been tested (not by the TM organization), and as far as anyone knows, random mantras *do* work just as well. Over the years I've run into a lot of people who complain about the cost of TM (and painting classes, and other courses as well), and say "Well, I could learn it on my own just as well. Why waste the money?" Fine, in theory. What I observe in practice is that 99% of these people don't follow through on it, making their observation a moot point. In other words, there is value in taking a class in *anything*, versus learning on one's own: you have external motivation, which makes it *far* more likely that you'll finish. The other obvious benefit of taking a class in *any* subject is the opportunity for interaction and feedback with/from the instructor. People tend to take the attitude that they can do just as well on their own, but this is *rarely* true, again for *any* subject. But especially so on subjective issues like whether you're performing a purely mental activity correctly. Very easy to get it wrong in subtle ways (I speak from experience). >They also claim to teach advanced practitioners how to levitate. I >have heard that these levitation sessions consist of roomfuls of people >making squatting bunnyhops on cushions. I must admit that, although sympathetic to meditation and the organization, this sounds like a bunch of BS. Despite having personal experience with the efficacy of meditation, I simply can't believe outrageous claims like this without proof. I might be wrong, of course... >The Maharishi's latest product line is a "Unified Field Theory". I would be >mildly curious to know what this is but have no intention of spending time >or money finding out. Agree. Anyone out there know about this? Doug Merritt ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt or ucbvax!eris!doug (doug@eris.berkeley.edu) or ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug
hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu (|-|ugh) (04/29/88)
In article <4860@cup.portal.com> doug-merritt@cup.portal.com writes: }Jack Campin writes: }>The Maharishi's latest product line is a "Unified Field Theory". I would be }>mildly curious to know what this is but have no intention of spending time }>or money finding out. } }Agree. Anyone out there know about this? The Maharishi has put out a glossy poster covered with impressive-looking equations, but I gather that real field theorists consider it total BS and a big laugh. I remember seeing the poster on the door of Irving Segal, a mathematical physicist at MIT. It was part of his funny/crank collection. Hugh Dunne | UUCP: ..{cmcl2,ihnp4,seismo!noao}!arizona!amethyst!hdunne Dept. of Math. | Phone: | ARPA: hdunne@amethyst.ma.arizona.edu Univ. of Arizona | +1 602 621 4766 | Bitnet: hdunne@arizrvax Tucson AZ 85721 | +1 602 621 6893 | Internet: hdunne@rvax.ccit.arizona.edu
doug-merritt@cup.portal.com (05/03/88)
Jeff Boeng recently posted some misinformation about TM. A) His comments about therapists thinking meditators have "thinned out auras" is content-free, given no real definition or objective evidence for auras. B) The fall-back comment about other therapists thinking that meditators are spaced out or out of contact is also content-free, since those are wholly subjective comments devoid of denotative meaning. Except that they might think they're a little strange, but consider that if TM does in fact produce any kind of state different than normal at all, then of course people in normal states *would* consider that strange, now wouldn't they. C) *Wholly* inaccurate is the comment about TM causing alpha-production. What it causes is a complex cycle of EEG patterns that includes alpha, delta, and theta. Simple biofeedback training produces simple alpha, and there have been zillions of studies by third party investigators that show the difference between the two. D) Also 100% inaccurate is the comment about losing the ability to use one hemisphere or the other. Virtually *all* neuropsychologists are in complete agreement that currently popular notions of people being "left brained" or "right brained" are hopeless simplifications that never occur in fact. Everyone (aside from those who are severely brain damaged, perhaps) uses both hemispheres, and they use them both 100% of the time. There's a good article in an issue of Science sometime in early 1987 by researchers at EEG Systems Labs that gives a very nice explanation of how people use different *patterns* of activitity in different regions of the brain, depending on what they're doing (e.g. walking versus solving math problems). This does not at all cleanly map into the layman's "left brain versus right brain model". In general the state of the art of research into areas like this is nowhere near advanced enough to be able to give definitive answers to questions like: does TM have a positive or negative effect on my brain waves? So don't go around claiming scientific support for your personal opinions. There's no strong proof either way. (Note I say this despite having posted a positive article about meditation recently; but I made it clear it was based on subjective personal opinion.) Doug Merritt ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt or ucbvax!eris!doug (doug@eris.berkeley.edu) or ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug
fawcett@gort.rutgers.edu (Tom Fawcett) (05/06/88)
It's probably a waste of time trying to rebut the claims of "Jeff Boeing" about TM. First, he cross-posted his message to rec.humor. Second, he ended his message with: Jeff Boeing (which is not my real name) | ...!uunet!stb.uucp!tracer Anyone not willing to sign his or her own name to a posting shouldn't be taken seriously anyway. -- Tom Fawcett Fawcett@Paul.Rutgers.Edu {harvard,seismo,ut-sally,sri-iu,ihnp4!packard}!rutgers!paul!fawcett