evan@pedsgo.UUCP (Evan Marcus) (11/11/86)
I have seen some complaining about how Americans are lousy when it comes to
learning foreign languages, and in fact take this shortcoming very lightly.
I am guilty of this. However, I only take a part of the blame. I have, in
my life, attempted to learn 2 foreign languages. One is Hebrew. Since I am
Jewish, that is a natural part of my upbringing. Today I can read it very
slowly and laboriously, and really only remember a handful of words. The
other is French. Everybody is taught French or Spanish in my old High
School. I know a slightly larger handful of French today. I took French
for 8 years of High School! (From 3rd grade until 10th or 11th)
The problem, in my opinion, is the way it is taught. We are not taught
conversational French/Hebrew, but instead we are taught for hours how to
conjugate verbs, and subjected to short, stilted conversations on tape.
There are some folks who say (here on the net) that a language can be
learned, on a basic level, in just a few weeks of intensive training. I
took 8 years, and never felt I could speak French. (I got As and Bs!)
Language learning is made to be a chore, rather than the fun experience it
could be. In addition, in America it is viewed as less important to learn
a foreign language, since everybody for hundreds and hundreds of miles in
almost every direction speaks English too (or at least is expected to!).
In Europe, the countries are much smaller, and it is much easier to leave
yours.
A greater emphasis should be put on practical use of a foreign language
rather than on conjugation and straight vocabulary. Then, maybe, Americans
could be persuaded to learn them.
(Then again maybe not...)
--
NAME: Evan L. Marcus
UUCP: ...{pesnta|prcrs|princeton|topaz|hjuxa|vax135}!petsd!pedsgo!evan
USnail: CONCURRENT Computer Corporation (a Perkin-Elmer Company)
M/S 308, 106 Apple St., Tinton Falls, NJ 07724
MA BELL:(201) 758-7357
Kirk: "Well, Mr. Spock, I think it does something for you."
Spock: "Yes, it makes me uncomfortable." [from "The Apple"]edwards@uwmacc.UUCP (mark edwards) (11/13/86)
In article <480@pedsgo.UUCP> evan@pedsgo.UUCP (Evan Marcus) writes: >I have seen some complaining about how Americans are lousy when it comes to >learning foreign languages, and in fact take this shortcoming very lightly. >I am guilty of this. However, I only take a part of the blame. I have, in >my life, attempted to learn 2 foreign languages. One is Hebrew. Since I am > >The problem, in my opinion, is the way it is taught. We are not taught >conversational French/Hebrew, but instead we are taught for hours how to >conjugate verbs, and subjected to short, stilted conversations on tape. There are many ways to learn a foreign language. The best is an intensive course, in the foriegn country of your choice. The worst is probably by yourself, next worst in a typical classroom situation. I speak from experience, I can speak and read/write Japanese and have had several Western languages. However, the best way to learn a foriegn language is also the most expensive. You guessed it, the worst is also the most inexpensive, with classroom experiences, coming next. Another problem with the education in schools, is the mass production effect. The only way to learn to speak and to be able to re-act in real life situations is to have the most personal training possible, and the interaction should be with native speakers. The only way to learn all what is expected, at a given budget (usually very small) is the way you said. But then the only way to learn to conjugate verbs, adjectives and put together sentences, is just by practice. ( I have done much of that. In Japanese you even have to learn the character sets, and the chinese characters. The way you do that is by practice, and it TAKES TIME.) >learned, on a basic level, in just a few weeks of intensive training. I >took 8 years, and never felt I could speak French. (I got As and Bs!) > But then again you took history classes, and how much do you recall from that ? >Language learning is made to be a chore, rather than the fun experience it >could be. There is nothing fun to have to memorize 20 or more words for the next class. ( In Japanese you also have learn to recognize the chinese characters, as well as the pronounciation and meaning). >In addition, in America it is viewed as less important to learn >a foreign language, since everybody for hundreds and hundreds of miles in >almost every direction speaks English too (or at least is expected to!). >In Europe, the countries are much smaller, and it is much easier to leave >yours. > >A greater emphasis should be put on practical use of a foreign language >rather than on conjugation and straight vocabulary. Then, maybe, Americans >could be persuaded to learn them. > >(Then again maybe not...) >-- It is all doomed from the start. Money does not grow on trees. A foriegn language is usually only needed by a small percentage of people. Why waste all the resources on the masses, when only a select few will ever need it? Actually don't get me wrong. I agree with you. But I see the other side, and I am now a tax payer. There are only so many dollars, most of which gets wasted ( or does it? ) Comments anyone ? I'm I right ? mark -- {allegra, ihnp4, seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!edwards UW-Madison, 1210 West Dayton St., Madison WI 53706
campbell@maynard.UUCP (Larry Campbell) (11/13/86)
Q: What do you call someone who speaks only one language?
.
.
.
.
.
.
A: American!
--
Larry Campbell MCI: LCAMPBELL The Boston Software Works, Inc.
UUCP: {alliant,wjh12}!maynard!campbell 120 Fulton Street, Boston MA 02109
ARPA: campbell%maynard.uucp@harvisr.harvard.edu (617) 367-6846essachs@ihuxe.UUCP (Ed Sachs) (11/13/86)
> ... In addition, in America it is viewed as less important to learn > a foreign language, since everybody for hundreds and hundreds of miles in > almost every direction speaks English too (or at least is expected to!). > In Europe, the countries are much smaller, and it is much easier to leave > yours. (This comes from the series on the English Language currently airing on PBS.) Another reason (perhaps) that Americans don't learn a second language is the question of what language to learn. The number one second language in the world is English! We already speak everyone else's second language! -- Ed Sachs AT&T Bell Laboratories Naperville, IL ihnp4!ihuxe!essachs
debray@megaron.UUCP (11/13/86)
> I have seen some complaining about how Americans are lousy when it comes to > learning foreign languages, and in fact take this shortcoming very lightly. Well, for a start I'd be happy if more Americans made a greater effort with their English (or is that a foreign language too?). (only 1/2 a :-) -- Saumya Debray University of Arizona, Tucson debray@arizona.edu {allegra, cmcl2, ihnp4}!arizona!debray
anderson@uwmacc.UUCP (Jess Anderson) (11/13/86)
In article <480@pedsgo.UUCP>, evan@pedsgo.UUCP (Evan Marcus) writes: > I have seen some complaining about how Americans are lousy when it comes to > learning foreign languages, and in fact take this shortcoming very lightly. [...] > The problem, in my opinion, is the way it is taught. We are not taught > conversational French/Hebrew, but instead we are taught for hours how to > conjugate verbs, and subjected to short, stilted conversations on tape. [...] > Language learning is made to be a chore, rather than the fun experience it > could be. In addition, in America it is viewed as less important to learn > a foreign language, since everybody for hundreds and hundreds of miles in > almost every direction speaks English too (or at least is expected to!). > In Europe, the countries are much smaller, and it is much easier to leave > yours. [...] Two points: First (in response to earlier postings, not this one), there are quite a few Americans who speak languages other than English as their birthright -- Spanish and Chinese come to mind at once, and there are many others with smaller communities (it's a current joke that you have to speak Ukrainian to get where you're going in New York by taxi). Second, I think there are quite a few Americans who *do* speak other languages by virtue of schooling, even though (as our poster says) much of the schooling could be better. I taught Russian for three years here as a TA, and I think it's fair to say that the difficulties our students faced had to do with the fact that from the point of view of English, Russian is a hard language to learn. In addition, the close geographical proximity to other languages such as one finds in Europe *is* a big factor. A further factor is language snobbism. I rather doubt that the ratio of Anglophones *in France* is significantly higher than that of Francophones in America (Canada is quite another matter), since my own perception is the French are fairly certain theirs is the only language one truly needs. In my own travels in France, I noticed immediate acceptance because I could speak the language well, but invariably I was asked if were Canadian *because* of that. Quite a few French people I've met speak German, but those who remember the war find doing so distasteful. Having said all this, and not having seen the original posting, my surmise is that it lamented the all-too-common fact that we Americans (US, not Canada) know fewer languages than we might. Indeed, too true. Political, economic, social, and cultural imperialism is doubtless the *main* culprit... -- ==ARPA:====================anderson@unix.macc.wisc.edu===Jess Anderson====== | UUCP: {harvard,seismo,topaz, 1210 W. Dayton | | akgua,allegra,ihnp4,usbvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!anderson Madison, WI 53706 | ==BITNET:============================anderson@wiscmacc===608/263-6988=======
amos@instable.UUCP (Amos Shapir) (11/14/86)
In Israel, new immigrants are taught Hebrew in Ulpans -special language schools. An opinion I once heard from a teacher in one of these, states that the degree of difficulty they encounter, according to country of origin, in increasing order is: Rumania, Hungary, South America (mainly Argentina), Russia, Western Europe, and Anglo-Saxon (British, Americans & South African). The latter, especially older people, almost never learn, and keep to English speaking company. Speakers of Arabic, of course have the least trouble of all. -- Amos Shapir National Semiconductor (Israel) 6 Maskit st. P.O.B. 3007, Herzlia 46104, Israel (01-972) 52-522261 amos%nsta@nsc 34.48'E 32.10'N
crowl@rochester.ARPA (Lawrence Crowl) (11/14/86)
In article <1301@megaron.UUCP> debray@megaron.UUCP writes:
)Well, for a start I'd be happy if more Americans made a greater effort with
)their English (or is that a foreign language too?).
)
)(only 1/2 a :-)
We DO know our language. It's just not the language you seem to think
it should be!
--
Lawrence Crowl 716-275-5766 University of Rochester
crowl@rochester.arpa Computer Science Department
...!{allegra,decvax,seismo}!rochester!crowl Rochester, New York, 14627michaelm@bcsaic.UUCP (Michael Maxwell) (11/14/86)
In article <480@pedsgo.UUCP> evan@pedsgo.UUCP (Evan Marcus) writes: >I have seen some complaining about how Americans are lousy when it comes to >learning foreign languages... >The problem, in my opinion, is the way it is taught. We are not taught >conversational French/Hebrew, but instead we are taught for hours how to >conjugate verbs, and subjected to short, stilted conversations on tape. >...In addition, in America it is viewed as less important to learn >a foreign language, since everybody for hundreds and hundreds of miles in >almost every direction speaks English too (or at least is expected to!). My personal opinion (I am certainly no expert!) is that the two problems are related. We don't learn conversational French etc. because there's no one except the teacher and the other students to talk to. I too took several years of a foreign language in High School (Spanish), and got quite a good background in grammar and (surprisingly) pronounciation. When I got to Latin America more than 10 years later, I was given a placement test for Spanish classes which tested mainly for knowledge of grammar. I did very well, but found I could hardly understand any of what I heard in class, nor could I say much. *But* the hearing and speaking came very easily; within a matter of days I was understanding everything in class, and could carry on a conversation. My conclusion (insofar as you can conclude anything from a single case) is that the grammar etc. that I had learned in HS was really useful, and merely needed to be supplemented by exposure to real conversation. BTW, there's certainly no lack of people around here to speak Spanish with, and our public schools (if foreign languages are still taught there!) are probably missing a real opportunity by not using that resource. I suspect a number of native speakers of Spanish would be happy for the added income, too... Likewise with some oriental languages (probably less so for French and Hebrew, at least in this part of the country). -- Mike Maxwell Boeing Advanced Technology Center ...uw-beaver!uw-june!bcsaic!michaelm
rjb@akgud.UUCP (rjb) (11/15/86)
Jess Anderson puts the blame on imperialism as to why we are
language nummies in the USofA . Naaaaaah Jess, it is plain
old $$$$. We Amuricans just have never needed to speak anything
else to make our weekly paycheck. It ain't snobbism or imperialism.
Hadn't anybody noticed ? Change requires effort and that effort
frequently requires a very materialistic reward.
--
Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb}
This is what i think...WHO knows what the Corporate genii up Nawth think ??anderson@uwmacc.UUCP (Jess Anderson) (11/17/86)
In article <133@akgud.UUCP>, rjb@akgud.UUCP (rjb) writes: > > Jess Anderson puts the blame on imperialism as to why we are > language nummies in the USofA . Naaaaaah Jess, it is plain > old $$$$. We Amuricans just have never needed to speak anything > else to make our weekly paycheck. It ain't snobbism or imperialism. > > Hadn't anybody noticed ? Change requires effort and that effort > frequently requires a very materialistic reward. You're agreeing with me, I think. Those bucks you refer to are the (non)heart and (non)soul of imperialism. I agree with you, too. It may be by default, even the result of laziness, but the effect is indistinguishable from snobbism, and our wealth was such that we had no incentive to change. Now that we're slipping into less pre-eminence in world economic matters, we may find it useful to learn other languages (Japanese and Chinese come to mind). I'm glad I already know Russian, in case they become our chief allies in an economic bloc trading with the traditional East. Lucky me, I've learned how to say hello and excuse me in Japanese--meagre, but a start (I assume that "there's a cow on the side of the mountain," which I can also say, is not very useful :-). -- ==ARPA:====================anderson@unix.macc.wisc.edu===Jess Anderson====== | UUCP: {harvard,seismo,topaz, 1210 W. Dayton | | akgua,allegra,ihnp4,usbvax}!uwvax!uwmacc!anderson Madison, WI 53706 | ==BITNET:============================anderson@wiscmacc===608/263-6988=======
kimcm@olamb.UUCP (Kim Chr. Madsen) (11/17/86)
In article <22435@rochester.ARPA>, crowl@rochester.ARPA (Lawrence Crowl) writes: > We DO know our language. It's just not the language you seem to think > it should be! Well, maybe you know your language - but can you spell it ?????? <Kim Chr. Madsen>
dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque;1893;92-789;LP=A;60jB) (11/17/86)
In article <133@akgud.UUCP> rjb@akgud.UUCP (rjb) writes: > >We Amuricans just have never needed to speak anything >else to make our weekly paycheck. > >Hadn't anybody noticed ? Change requires effort and that effort >frequently requires a very materialistic reward. > >-- > >Bob Brown {...ihnp4!akgua!rjb} > I read in the paper the other day that enrollment in Japanese classes at Oregon universities is up significantly in recent years. It seems that it is mostly business majors who are taking the classes. Dan Tilque dant@tekla.tek.com
edwards@uwmacc.UUCP (mark edwards) (11/18/86)
In article <877@zeus.UUCP> dant@tekla.tek.com (Dan Tilque) writes: > >I read in the paper the other day that enrollment in Japanese >classes at Oregon universities is up significantly in recent years. >It seems that it is mostly business majors who are taking the >classes. > I believe its up here at Madison also. At least in the first 2 years. But still it seems most quit after the first year , more after the second year. Those who make through to the fourth year, are few in number. Japanese maybe atypical, but two years of Japanese might be close only ONE year of German or French. Its not enough, and is only barely useful.