alan@idec.stc.co.uk (Alan Spreadbury) (11/07/86)
Around the end of October, we were told on the news that Belgium was on the brink of civil war (all right, that's a slight exaggeration) because the French-speaking mayor of a French-speaking commune in a Flemish-speaking province was refusing to comply with a requirement that he attain a certain proficiency in speaking Flemish. The matter was apparently complicated by the fact that the court investigating the dispute conducted its business in Flemish, while the mayor would only address it in French. What happened? Does this sort of thing happen in other multi-lingual countries? Is this the reason for Proposition whatever-it-was in California (making English the only official language)? Alan Spreadbury.
credmond@watmath.UUCP (Chris Redmond) (11/10/86)
In article <743@argon.idec.stc.co.uk> alan@idec.stc.co.uk (Alan Spreadbury) writes: >Around the end of October, we were told on the news that Belgium was >on the brink of civil war (all right, that's a slight exaggeration) >because the French-speaking mayor of a French-speaking commune in >a Flemish-speaking province was refusing to comply with a requirement >that he attain a certain proficiency in speaking Flemish. The matter >was apparently complicated by the fact that the court investigating >the dispute conducted its business in Flemish, while the mayor would >only address it in French. > >What happened? Does this sort of thing happen in other multi-lingual >countries? Is this the reason for Proposition whatever-it-was in >California (making English the only official language)? > This sort of nonsense gets into the papers all the time in Canada, and I don't think anybody takes it too seriously. (I have the impression that it is sparked, as often as not, by a lawyer who wishes to help a client fight an otherwise perfectly valid parking ticket, and persuades a court that the ticket was written in the wrong language.) Little frictions are part of the price we happily pay for having a country in which the 27 per cent French cohort can live in their own language next door to the 73 per cent English cohort. I have been watching with horror as the English-only advocates in the United States point to Canada as an example of what goes wrong in a bilingual country. What goes on here isn't a disaster, it's (usually) a happy success, in my opinion. And while Spanish in the United States is an immigrant language, French and English here are the "native" languages -- well, not native in the sense that Algonquin and Cree are native, of course, but they are the languages in which the country grew up in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. We have plenty of immigrants whose native tongues are Bengali, Chinese, Portuguese and so on -- not much Spanish, but could be a few -- and we continue to expect them to learn English or French when they get here. >Alan Spreadbury.
rob@ptsfb.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) (11/11/86)
In article <3289@watmath.UUCP> credmond@watmath.UUCP (Chris Redmond) writes:
~>I have been watching with horror as the English-only advocates in the
~>United States point to Canada as an example of what goes wrong in a
~>bilingual country. What goes on here isn't a disaster, it's (usually)
~>a happy success, in my opinion. And while Spanish in the United States
~>is an immigrant language, French and English here are the "native"
~>languages -- well, not native in the sense that Algonquin and Cree are
~>native, of course, but they are the languages in which the country grew
~>up in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries.
I don't mean to pick bones, but as for Texas and California (and probably
other states inbtween), Spanish is ``more native'' than English.
--
Rob Bernardo, San Ramon, CA "Whenever I get the urge to work,
(415) 823-2417 I log in and read the netnews
{pyramid|ihnp4|dual}!ptsfa!rob until the feeling passes."crowl@rochester.ARPA (Lawrence Crowl) (11/11/86)
In article <1001@ptsfb.UUCP> rob@ptsfb.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) writes: )In article <3289@watmath.UUCP> credmond@watmath.UUCP (Chris Redmond) writes: ))I have been watching with horror as the English-only advocates in the ))United States point to Canada as an example of what goes wrong in a ))bilingual country. What goes on here isn't a disaster, it's (usually) ))a happy success, in my opinion. And while Spanish in the United States ))is an immigrant language, French and English here are the "native" ))languages -- well, not native in the sense that Algonquin and Cree are ))native, of course, but they are the languages in which the country grew ))up in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. ) )I don't mean to pick bones, but as for Texas and California (and probably )other states inbtween), Spanish is ``more native'' than English. New Mexico is one of those states "inbetween" Texas and California. (See map below). Forty percent of the households in New Mexico speak Spanish as the primary language. As a result, New Mexico has two official state (i.e. province) languages, English and Spanish. Election ballots are bilingual, but I do not know if the laws are maintained bilingually. \\ Calif. | Arizona | New Mexico | Texas \\_________|_______________|_______________| ||________________________________\ || \\ Texas || Mexico \\ -- Lawrence Crowl 716-275-5766 University of Rochester crowl@rochester.arpa Computer Science Department ...!{allegra,decvax,seismo}!rochester!crowl Rochester, New York, 14627
b2@science.UUCP (Bryan Bingham) (11/12/86)
> New Mexico is one of those states "inbetween" Texas and California. > (See map below). Forty percent of the households in New Mexico speak > Spanish as the primary language. As a result, New Mexico has two > official state (i.e. province) languages, English and Spanish. Election > ballots are bilingual, but I do not know if the laws are maintained > bilingually. > -- > Lawrence Crowl 716-275-5766 University of Rochester I lived in New Mexico for 20 years. The statement that 40% of all households use Spanish as the PRIMARY language is wrong. The real number is more like 20%. I know that in 1978, there were only about 1300 people that could read only Spanish, the rest that could read could read English or both. The current population of NM is something like 1.2 million. Although settled by Spaniards in the late 16th century, the majority of the population is Anglo. Laws are not maintained in any language other than Legaleze. Interestingly, the Spanish spoken by natives is much more like the Spanish of the 16th century than modern Castilian or even Mexican. It is difficult for Spanish speakers from Spain to communicate effectively in NM using their Spanish. Not impossible, of course, just difficult. Bryan Bingham b2@bellcore.com {backbone}!bellcore!b2 ps. I wish I was still in NM. I had 4 years of Spanish in HS, but am no longer able to use what I was taught.
ken@hcrvax.UUCP (11/12/86)
In article <743@argon.idec.stc.co.uk> alan@idec.stc.co.uk (Alan Spreadbury) writes: >[problem in Belgium, language groups (French vs Flemish) > at each other's throats] >What happened? Does this sort of thing happen in other multi-lingual >countries? You bet it does. In Canada (not exactly a hot-headed population) as we enter the seventies we had "The FLQ Crisis." Terrorists from the Front de Liberation du Quebec kidnapped and murdered a Quebec government minister, and kidnapped the British ambassador. The government proclaimed a "state of emergency," i.e. martial law with all that that entails. More recently, the separatist Parti Quebecois, at the time the provincial government in Quebec, passed an outrageous law called Bill 101, which make it illegal (among other things) to have store signs in English. Not English _only_, but with any English at all. The press had a field day, writing stories about a little kid selling Christmas trees who was fined for having English on his sign. That law has not been revoked, although it is not currently enforced. >Is this the reason for Proposition whatever-it-was in >California (making English the only official language)? I doubt it. That is simply the bourgeoisie trying to maintain the status quo, which is favourable to them. -- - Ken Scott [decvax,ihnp4]!utzoo!hcr!ken For, I said to myself, what is the universe? Big. And what am I? Little. I therefore might as well be at home, where my wife loves me. - Henderson, The Rain King
jc@cdx39.UUCP (John Chambers) (11/17/86)
> ... And while Spanish in the United States > is an immigrant language, French and English here are the "native" > languages ... Boy, are you gonna get flames for that! In much of the USA, including most of the Southwest and Florida, Spanish was in use long before English. It is basically English that is the "immigrant" language, with the immigrants eventually taking over and applying for statehood. The story wasn't quite this simple in Florida, which was purchased by the US government from Spain. In Texas, the Anglos fomented a revolution against Mexico, and formed a separate republic that lasted a few years until it became a state. Much of New Mexico and Arizona were either grabbed in a war or were purchased from Mexico; at the time most of the inhabitants spoke Spanish, Navajo, and Hopi. And so on. -- John M Chambers Phone: 617/364-2000x7304 Email: ...{adelie,bu-cs,harvax,inmet,mcsbos,mit-eddie,mot[bos],rclex}!cdx39!{jc,news,root,usenet,uucp} Smail: Codex Corporation; Mailstop C1-30; 20 Cabot Blvd; Mansfield MA 02048-1193 Telex: 922-443 CODEX A MNSF Clever-Saying: For job offers please call at home (617/484-6393) evenings and weekends.
bl@hplabsb.UUCP (Bruce T. Lowerre) (11/19/86)
In article <1001@ptsfb.UUCP>, rob@ptsfb.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) writes: > I don't mean to pick bones, but as for Texas and California (and probably > other states inbtween), Spanish is ``more native'' than English. There are a lot of native born Americans living in Puerto Rico who speak only Spanish.