reggie@paradyne.com (George W. Leach) (02/12/91)
A student of mine had a question that I wanted to pose to the members
of this newsgroup. This person intends on majoring in Math and perhaps
minoring in CS. The question pertains to how much is Fortran used in a
typical Mathematics Department for undergraduate coursework? The reason
for the question is that this person wants to decide if she should purchase
a PC-based compiler or not.
Is any other language used in Math Departments other than Fortran?
Are there libraries available that you use for special purposes? If so,
are they typically used on a PC?
Thanks,
George
--
George W. Leach AT&T Paradyne
reggie@paradyne.com Mail stop LG-133
Phone: 1-813-530-2376 P.O. Box 2826
FAX: 1-813-530-8224 Largo, FL 34649-2826 USAhb136@leah.albany.edu (Herb Brown) (02/13/91)
In article <1991Feb12.151552.17331@pdn.paradyne.com> reggie@paradyne.com (George W. Leach) writes: > > A student of mine had a question that I wanted to pose to the members >of this newsgroup. This person intends on majoring in Math and perhaps >minoring in CS. The question pertains to how much is Fortran used in a >typical Mathematics Department for undergraduate coursework? The reason >for the question is that this person wants to decide if she should purchase >a PC-based compiler or not. > > Is any other language used in Math Departments other than Fortran? > >Thanks, > >-- >George W. Leach AT&T Paradyne >reggie@paradyne.com Mail stop LG-133 >Phone: 1-813-530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 >FAX: 1-813-530-8224 Largo, FL 34649-2826 USA At the University at Albany no mathematics course (undergraduate or graduate) uses Fortran (or any other cs language) However, we offer several courses ranging from elementary courses for non-science/math majors to junior/senior mathematics courses in a specially designed Computer Classroom using MAPLE software on Amiga Computers. We are into the second semester of this venture and so far our colleagues are quite pleased with the results. Herb
) (02/15/91)
In article <1991Feb12.151552.17331@pdn.paradyne.com> reggie@paradyne.com (George W. Leach) writes: > A student of mine had a question that I wanted to pose to the members >of this newsgroup. This person intends on majoring in Math and perhaps >minoring in CS. The question pertains to how much is Fortran used in a >typical Mathematics Department for undergraduate coursework? The reason >for the question is that this person wants to decide if she should purchase >a PC-based compiler or not. > > Is any other language used in Math Departments other than Fortran? >Are there libraries available that you use for special purposes? If so, >are they typically used on a PC? > >Thanks, > >George >-- >George W. Leach AT&T Paradyne >reggie@paradyne.com Mail stop LG-133 >Phone: 1-813-530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 >FAX: 1-813-530-8224 Largo, FL 34649-2826 USA [trimmed up article by removing some blank lines] Here at Chico State the Math Department does not encourage the use of computers for solving problems, even in the numerical methods classes. Speaking as a CS major with an interest in math, I would recomend knowing FORTRAN simply because it is good at number crunching and there is a lot of code out there. I would also recomend a knowledge of Pascal and/or C. Pascal is good because of the big safety net, but is awful for math functions. (Standard Pascal, that is. I don't know how Turbo Pascal is.) C is better at the math functions, but you can really do screwy things in C, and it will still compile. Ada might be something to look at, but I don't know enough about it. We had an awful implementation here at Chico that we scrapped using after the first semester, so my expierence is negative. Ada is something I would like to learn though, since the DoD requires it for its programs. Hope this helps, ack (aka Andy Santoro). / aka Andy Santoro (ack@csuchico.edu) __. _. /_ California State University, Chico (_/|_(__/ <_ #include "witty_disclaimer"
mjs@hubcap.clemson.edu (m j saltzman) (02/16/91)
In article <1991Feb12.151552.17331@pdn.paradyne.com> reggie@paradyne.com (George W. Leach) writes: > > A student of mine had a question that I wanted to pose to the members >of this newsgroup. This person intends on majoring in Math and perhaps >minoring in CS. The question pertains to how much is Fortran used in a >typical Mathematics Department for undergraduate coursework? The reason >for the question is that this person wants to decide if she should purchase >a PC-based compiler or not. > > Is any other language used in Math Departments other than Fortran? >Are there libraries available that you use for special purposes? If so, >are they typically used on a PC? Here at Clemson, the numerical mathematics courses are often taught using FORTRAN. The machines available for student use include PCs and Macintoshes, but mostly a mainframe running TSO 8^( 8^( 8^(! As far as I know, almost no Computer Science curricula currently use FORTRAN as the principal instructional language (flame away, I'm ready...). The procedure-oriented languages of choice for CS include Pascal, C, Modula-2, PL/C (and probably other "structured" languages). Math curricula that include computation with procedure-oriented languages are probably using FORTRAN or C, but many Math curricula (as you've seen) don't emphasize computing, or use symbolic languages. Another factor is that even halfway-decent FORTRAN compilers for PCs are relatively expensive. Pretty good C and Pascal compilers are readily available for very reasonable prices (from Borland, for example). Finally, I think that it is relatively easy to learn to write FORTRAN once you know almost any other procedural language. (Now the flames are really going to fly! Oh, well...) With all those personal biases in mind, I would offer the following advice: Don't buy a PC FORTRAN compiler until you know if the school you choose will have a heavy emphasis on FORTRAN. If you want to learn programming (still a useful skill, IMHO, despite the advent of symbolic and expression-oriented languages), buy Turbo Pascal or Turbo C or some other low-priced Pascal or C compiler and learn that. If you need FORTRAN later, it will be a snap to learn, and you can always get the compiler then. (If you are completely new to programming, I'd suggest starting with Pascal, I think, although I don't know much about the latest object-oriented Turbo Pascal.) >Thanks, > >George >-- >George W. Leach AT&T Paradyne >reggie@paradyne.com Mail stop LG-133 >Phone: 1-813-530-2376 P.O. Box 2826 >FAX: 1-813-530-8224 Largo, FL 34649-2826 USA Matthew Saltzman mjs@clemson.edu (I am not affiliated with Borland. My opinions are my own. Institutions don't have opinions. Free advice is worth what you pay for it.)
thc@cs.brown.edu (Thomas Colthurst) (02/16/91)
Most mathematicians, in my experience, have no need for Fortran, and get by rather well with Mathematica, Maple, MATLAB, etc. Applied mathematicians, on the other hand, frequently need to know FORTRAN because of the large amount of FORTRAN code that is already out there, and because of its wide-spread support (As the saying goes, FORTRAN is still the language of super-computers.) I would buy a PC version of FORTRAN only if I know a large deal of my assignments would be in FORTRAN (which seems unlikely), and even then a modem and good terminal emulator would seem more useful. The above statements in no way imply that FORTRAN is the language which applied mathematicians should be using. This honor probably goes to C++, in which it is easy to implement and use mathematical objects using classes (most come with complex numbers, vectors, matrices, etc.), is reasonably fast (as good as C, if done right), and reasonably portable (anywhere you have a C compiler and can port cfront too). Pretty soon applied mathematicians are going to start tackling large software projects and discover that the techniques and languages they are using are totally inappropriate. -Thomas C
wfh58@leah.albany.edu (William F. Hammond) (02/17/91)
In article <1991Feb13.131044.19020@sarah.albany.edu> hb136@leah.albany.edu (Herb Brown) writes: >In article <1991Feb12.151552.17331@pdn.paradyne.com> reggie@paradyne.com >(George W. Leach) writes: >> ... This person intends on majoring in Math and perhaps >>minoring in CS. The question pertains to how much is Fortran used in a >>typical Mathematics Department for undergraduate coursework? ... >> >> Is any other language used in Math Departments other than Fortran? > >At the University at Albany no mathematics course (undergraduate or graduate) >uses Fortran (or any other cs language). ^^^^^^^^^^^ Almost but not quite. > However, we offer several courses >ranging from elementary courses for non-science/math majors to junior/senior >mathematics courses in a specially designed Computer Classroom using MAPLE >software on Amiga Computers. We are into the second semester of this venture >and so far our colleagues are quite pleased with the results. > The junior level algebra course based on the book "A Concrete Introduction to Higher Algebra" by Lindsay Childs (Springer Verlag) that I taught last fall in our computerized classroom used the general purpose interpreted computer language REXX, implemented on the Amiga as "ARexx". (One of the nice things about REXX, among general purpose languages, for mathematicians is its ability to accept a function *definition*, like (x**2)*exp(x) at run time as *data* without a programming kludge.) Symbolic manipulation packages such as "Maple" are more commonly used by mathematicians than are general purpose programming languages. In fact, the better symbolic manipulation packages, "Maple" included, have their own "scripting" facilities, and in that sense can be regarded as offering a "language". Part of the point is that mathematicians, generally, are interested in mathematical questions, and any interest in computer programming is ancillary for most. The junior level course in algebra that I mentioned above could have been done with a symbolic manipulation package. I rejected that approach because the students would not have been forced deeply enough into an understanding of the algorithms that underlie the content of the course. (It's a course about Euclidean rings.) Too much is built into "Maple"; my philosophy is that the ability to write a script to do something with polynomials, given with coefficients modulo a prime, shows evidence of understanding of the subject that would not be shown by the ability to use canned functions effectively. For the level beyond this course, however, I am using "Maple", and for a still higher level beyond that I would use "Macaulay". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- William F. Hammond Dept. of Mathematics & Statistics 518-442-4625 SUNYA, Albany, NY 12222 hammond@leah.albany.edu wfh58@albnyvms.bitnet ----------------------------------------------------------------------
reggie@paradyne.com (George W. Leach) (02/19/91)
Here is the question that I put forth in my original posting:
A student of mine had a question that I wanted to pose to the members
of this newsgroup. This person intends on majoring in Math and perhaps
minoring in CS. The question pertains to how much is Fortran used in a
typical Mathematics Department for undergraduate coursework? The reason
for the question is that this person wants to decide if she should purchase
a PC-based compiler or not.
Is any other language used in Math Departments other than Fortran?
Are there libraries available that you use for special purposes? If so,
are they typically used on a PC?
I received replies, or there were postings to the newsgroups by
the following people:
Gerald Edgar <uunet!shape.mps.ohio-state.edu!edgar>
uunet!math.berkeley.edu!raymond (Raymond Chen)
uunet!cs.brown.edu!jda (Jeff Achter)
uunet!Eng.Sun.COM!khb (Keith Bierman fpgroup)
Ron Fox <uunet!rudolf.nscl.msu.edu!fox>
uunet!math.rutgers.edu!bumby (Richard Bumby)
uunet!pop.stat.purdue.edu!hrubin (Herman Rubin)
Bruce Alan Fast <uunet!godel.Colorado.EDU!fast>
uunet!ATHENA.MIT.EDU!tdaniels
uunet!c3.c3.LANL.GOV!mikeg (Michael P. Gerlek)
hb136@leah.albany.edu (Herb Brown)
"BERRY SCOTT D" <uunet!acad3.alaska.edu!fxsdb>
Tim Stoutamore <uunet!scd.hp.com!stout>
uunet!cs.albany.edu!hammond (William F Hammond)
uunet!mel.dms.csiro.au!alan (Alan Miller)
Peter Moylan <uunet!cc.newcastle.edu.au!EEPJM>
David Ross <uunet!stat.orst.edu!ross>
uunet!debussy.cs.colostate.edu!petersja (james peterson)
Robert Chaffer <uunet!CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!3IU4TOB%CMUVM.BITNET>
uunet!watop!frost (Richard Frost)
uunet!brinx.acc.Virginia.EDU!cpr4k (Christian P. Roberts)
ack@ecst.csuchico.edu (Andy Santoro)
mjs@hubcap.clemson.edu (m j saltzman)
thc@cs.brown.edu (Thomas Colthurst)
Most of these postings made it clear that on the average most
undergraduate math majors are not heavily utilizing computers in their
courswork. There are exceptions of course. For those exceptions, there
does not seem to be a clear cut direction as far as what type of language
or system that is employed. Therefore, the best advise to provide to the
student is to wait until you reach the university and department that you
will be dealing with before a purchase.
I probably failed to point out in my original posting, that I teach
in the Engineering Technology Department for a local junior college. Most
students who are planning on moving to a four year program are bound
for an engineering program. That is the reason for my lack of familiarity
with the needs of a math major. I majored in CS.
If anyone is interested in obtaining all of the individual replies
and postings, send me e-mail and I will be happy to send them to you.
Thank you all,
George
--
George W. Leach AT&T Paradyne
reggie@paradyne.com Mail stop LG-133
Phone: 1-813-530-2376 P.O. Box 2826
FAX: 1-813-530-8224 Largo, FL 34649-2826 USAjav8106@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Doctor FORTRAN) (02/19/91)
In article <13138@hubcap.clemson.edu>, mjs@hubcap.clemson.edu (m j saltzman) writes...
-As far as I know, almost no Computer Science curricula currently use
-FORTRAN as the principal instructional language (flame away, I'm ready...).
No need to flame you, Matthew -- What you mention should not surprise
subscribers to this group, because we've already established here that no
actual programming is done in Computer Science curricula. [Insert 100 ':-)'
here.]
-Finally, I think that it is relatively easy to learn to write
-FORTRAN once you know almost any other procedural language. (Now
-the flames are really going to fly! Oh, well...)
Again, no need for flames here. What you neglect to mention, however, is that
FORTRAN is even easier to learn if the mind has not yet been poisoned by
hacking paradigms, such as C. [Another ':-)' here.]
-buy
-Turbo Pascal or Turbo C or some other low-priced Pascal or C
-compiler and learn that. If you need FORTRAN later, it will be a
-snap to learn, and you can always get the compiler then.
I'd like to proffer this caveat: If you _do_ start out with Pascal or C, buy
one from a company which also offers a FORTRAN compiler. If you start out with
Turbo C, and decide to add FORTRAN later, and wish to link FORTRAN and C stuff
together, you'll be in one heck of a jam. Easy, you say? Just buy Microsoft C
in addition to their FORTRAN product? Unfortunately, it is extremely, if not
entirely impossible, to write code to compile under one compiler and then
compile it with another with no hitches.
IM(Anything But)HO, Borland's lack of a FORTRAN compiler puts them in the bush
league. Until they produce a FORTRAN compiler, consider the prospect of having
to re-compile your C-code under somebody else's compiler if you want to add
FORTRAN later. What you want is a compiler which generates object code which
is guaranteed to be compatible with object code generated by some FORTRAN
compiler. [No smilies here.]
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