frisk@krafla.UUCP (10/02/87)
Can anyone tell me if a high-pressure mixture of xenon and oxygen would
be breathable.
The reason I am asking this is that it should be possible to create a mixture
with density just above that of water.
Now - if this mixture is breathable - it should be possible to float around in
this. Just imagine it - we would finally be able to fly like the birds. :-)
--
Fridrik Skulason University of Iceland
UUCP frisk@rhi.uucp BIX frisk
This line intentionally left blank ...................palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu.UUCP (10/03/87)
In article <18@krafla.UUCP> frisk@krafla.UUCP (Fridrik Skulason) writes: >Can anyone tell me if a high-pressure mixture of xenon and oxygen would >be breathable. > >The reason I am asking this is that it should be possible to create a mixture >with density just above that of water. > >Now - if this mixture is breathable - it should be possible to float around in >this. Just imagine it - we would finally be able to fly like the birds. :-) This has been suggested in the "Inventions Of Daedalus" on the last page of NewScientist (a British magazine), reprinted in the book of the same name by David Jones (I believe that is the author's name). It is a very good book full of neat and impractical ideas. There may be a problem with pumping high density fluids into and out of the lungs. This may be partially compensated for by increasing the partial pressure of oxygen, within limits, so that you don't have to breath as often. The article also explains the real meaning behind "Kubla Kahn" In Xenodu, did Kubla Kahn, A stately pressure dome decree... David Palmer palmer@tybalt.caltech.edu ...rutgers!cit-vax!tybalt.caltech.edu!palmer The opinions expressed are those of an 8000 year old Atlantuan priestess named Mrla, and not necessarily those of her channel.
matt@oddjob.UUCP (10/04/87)
In article <18@krafla.UUCP> frisk@krafla.UUCP (Fridrik Skulason) writes:
) The reason I am asking this is that it should be possible to create a mixture
) [of of xenon and oxygen] with density just above that of water. ...
) it should be possible to float around in this.
I don't know about everyone else, but when I exhale fully, I sink.
It follows that if I inhaled something whose density was greater than
or equal to the density of water, I'd still sink. Still, I might
have near enough to neutral bouyancy that a little helium-filled belt
could even it up.
Matt Crawfordrobert@uop.UUCP (Robert McCaul--The Equalizer) (10/04/87)
In article <18@krafla.UUCP>, frisk@krafla.UUCP (Fridrik Skulason) writes: > Can anyone tell me if a high-pressure mixture of xenon and oxygen would > be breathable. > > The reason I am asking this is that it should be possible to create a mixture > with density just above that of water. am i the only one who remembers the guy who came up with something similar?? i remember mice being dropped into beakers of something akin to water in appearance that was breathable... the mice would swim around and exhaust the air out of their lungs, and then keep swimming about... i always wanted to see what happened when he took them out!!
doug@ndcheg.UUCP (Doug Price) (10/04/87)
In article <18@krafla.UUCP>, frisk@krafla.UUCP (Fridrik Skulason) writes: > Can anyone tell me if a high-pressure mixture of xenon and oxygen would > be breathable. > > The reason I am asking this is that it should be possible to create a mixture > with density just above that of water. > > Now - if this mixture is breathable - it should be possible to float around in > this. Just imagine it - we would finally be able to fly like the birds. :-) > > -- > Fridrik Skulason University of Iceland > UUCP frisk@rhi.uucp BIX frisk > > This line intentionally left blank ................... Xenon is a colorless, odorless, nonreactive inert gas with anesthetic properties. It acts as a simple asphyxiant by displacing air. Since xenon is 4.56 more dense than air at 21 C, I wonder how you can keep a homogenous mixture of xenon/O2 without going to zero gravity? Also, 300 liters of 800 psig xenon will run you approximately $3600 (U.S.). Seems like you would have a little trouble getting adequate funding for this project just to fly like a bird. __ Doug Price University of Notre Dame ..!iuvax!ndmath!ndcheg!doug
lindsay@k.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) (10/05/87)
In article <18@krafla.UUCP> frisk@krafla.UUCP (Fridrik Skulason) writes: >The reason I am asking this is that it should be possible to create a mixture >[of of xenon and oxygen] with density just above that of water. ... >it should be possible to float around in this. It's possible to breath oxygenated fluid. There's a wonderful photo in the 26sep87 issue of Science News (vol. 132 #13) showing a submerged live mouse. This was first done in 1965. There was initially some trouble in getting the mouse to stay alive afterwards. The article doesn't mention it, but a human tried the process. It wasn't fun: aside from lung-surface pain, and aside from getting pumped out afterwards, it turns out that the human diaphragm isn't strong enough to push all that mass in and out. The subject got very tired ! I have my doubts about floating in xenon. Radon is a noble gas, and cheaper too: why not use that ? :) :) -- Don lindsay@k.gp.cs.cmu.edu CMU Computer Science
dgary@ecsvax.UUCP (D Gary Grady) (10/06/87)
In article <566@uop.UUCP> robert@uop.UUCP (Robert McCaul--The Equalizer) writes: >In article <18@krafla.UUCP>, frisk@krafla.UUCP (Fridrik Skulason) writes: >> Can anyone tell me if a high-pressure mixture of xenon and oxygen would >> be breathable. >> >> The reason I am asking this is that it should be possible to create a mixture >> with density just above that of water. > >am i the only one who remembers the guy who came up with something >similar?? i remember mice being dropped into beakers of something >akin to water in appearance that was breathable... The substance in question was a halogenated hydrocarbon (can't recall which, but some Freon relative (obviously)). I've seen the trick with the mouse and when they are removed and drained (by holding them up by the tail) they look a mite peeved but OK. (Yes, I think it's cruel and should not be done as a demonstration.) The substance does an excellent job of disolving oxygen and has been used as a generic blood substitute I believe, particularly in Japan (where donating blood, not to mention willing organs, are very unpopular). As for gas so dense you could swim in it, I recall a proposal for just such a thing in the Daedalus column of New Scientist (collected in a book called _The Inventions of Daedalus_. As I recall, the nitrogen substitute proposed was uranium-238 hexafluoride, which is quite dense, but I'm not sure it's nontoxic. I recommend the Daedalus column for wild, mind expanding ideas, some of which might actually pan out (like the sock with passive cilia that would cause it to constantly crawl up the leg as one moved...). -- D Gary Grady (919) 286-4296 USENET: {seismo,decvax,ihnp4,akgua,etc.}!mcnc!ecsvax!dgary BITNET: dgary@ecsvax.bitnet
tsf@theory.cs.cmu.edu (Timothy Freeman) (10/06/87)
In article <3981@ecsvax.UUCP> dgary@ecsvax.UUCP (D Gary Grady) writes: >As for gas so dense you could swim in it, I recall a proposal for just >such a thing in the Daedalus column of New Scientist (collected in a >book called _The Inventions of Daedalus_. As I recall, the nitrogen >substitute proposed was uranium-238 hexafluoride, which is quite dense, >but I'm not sure it's nontoxic. Well *I* don't want to swim around with radioactive gas in my lungs and around my body. Sounds like an interesting fling if you have nothing else interesting to do with your life, though. -- Tim Freeman Arpanet: tsf@theory.cs.cmu.edu Uucp: ...!seismo!theory.cs.cmu.edu!tsf
drw@culdev1.UUCP (Dale Worley) (10/06/87)
frisk@krafla.UUCP (Fridrik Skulason) writes: > Can anyone tell me if a high-pressure mixture of xenon and oxygen would > be breathable. I've heard a few bits about this sort of thing. (1) Getting the oxygen partial pressure within the safe range is tricky in high-pressure mixtures, since the allowable range of composition percentages is inversely proportional to pressure. (2) High-pressure inert (noble) gasses have an anesthetic effect. What sort of pressures are you talking about? Sounds weird. Dale -- Dale Worley Cullinet Software ARPA: culdev1!drw@eddie.mit.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!harvard!mit-eddie!culdev1!drw Give me money or kill me!
mwj@a.UUCP (William Johnson) (10/06/87)
In article <1071@theory.cs.cmu.edu>, tsf@theory.cs.cmu.edu (Timothy Freeman) writes: > In article <3981@ecsvax.UUCP> dgary@ecsvax.UUCP (D Gary Grady) writes: > >substitute proposed was uranium-238 hexafluoride, which is quite dense, > >but I'm not sure it's nontoxic. > Well *I* don't want to swim around with radioactive gas in my lungs > and around my body. Sounds like an interesting fling if you have > nothing else interesting to do with your life, though. U-238 is so long-lived that radiation hazard from it is insignificant in almost all situations. (It's used a lot as shielding for the really nasty stuff, in fact.) However, UF6, like practically any actinide compound you want to name, is indeed chemically toxic. Don't remember the standards for exposure, but they're pretty low. Certainly enough to significantly raise the density of the breathable medium (you can't really call it "air" any more ...) would wipe you out in a hurry. -------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Johnson Opinions? Who Los Alamos National Laboratory has opinions?
fiddler%concertina@Sun.COM (Steve Hix) (10/06/87)
In article <3981@ecsvax.UUCP>, dgary@ecsvax.UUCP (D Gary Grady) writes: > substitute proposed was uranium-238 hexafluoride, which is quite dense, > but I'm not sure it's nontoxic. I recommend the Daedalus column for It's not only somewhat corrosive (and toxic), it's also just a bit radioactive. As a waste by-product of gaseous diffusion production of U-235, it might not be too expensive in quantity..:] seh
rsb@mcc-pp.UUCP (Richard S. Brice) (10/06/87)
Leland Clark's "mice" experiments are mentioned in the latest issue of the Science News magazine. That source claims the mice lived for two or three days after taken out but then died due to inflammation of the lungs.
leonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (10/07/87)
<In article <18@krafla.UUCP>, frisk@krafla.UUCP (Fridrik Skulason) writes:
<> Can anyone tell me if a high-pressure mixture of xenon and oxygen would
<> be breathable.
<>
<> The reason I am asking this is that it should be possible to create a mixture
<> with density just above that of water.
Yes, but there is one _slight_ problem. For reasons which I do not understand
Xenon is an anaesthetic(sp)!!
I've got no idea how a noble gas can do this, but it does. Maybe someone
out there can give us more details?
--
Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard
CIS: [70465,203]
"I used to be a hacker. Now I'm a 'microcomputer specialist'.
You know... I'd rather be a hacker."drw@culdev1.UUCP (Dale Worley) (10/07/87)
lindsay@k.gp.cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes: > I have my doubts about floating in xenon. Radon is a noble gas, and cheaper > too: why not use that ? :) :) Doesn't sound fun. Radon is radioactive, and not just a *little* radioactive. It's a powerful alpha emitter with a short half-life, and it wouldn't be fun to have in your lungs. Dale -- Dale Worley Cullinet Software ARPA: culdev1!drw@eddie.mit.edu UUCP: ...!seismo!harvard!mit-eddie!culdev1!drw Give me money or HOS!cyste
alastair@geovision.UUCP (Alastair Mayer) (10/08/87)
In article <18@krafla.UUCP> frisk@krafla.UUCP (Fridrik Skulason) writes: >Can anyone tell me if a high-pressure mixture of xenon and oxygen would >be breathable. Well, yes and no. I don't know that there are any lethal effects of breathing xenon, but you'd lose conciousness pretty fast breathing it at any significant partial pressure. It has a narcotic effect much as nitrogen does at pp's above 70psi or so. Since xenon molecular weight is higher than nitrogen, xenon narcosis occurs at much lower pressures (don't recall exact figure - 4 or 5psi partial pressure?) Most 'inert' gases exhibit this same phenomenon. One exception is helium, which at high pressures (several hundred psi - equivalent to something between 1000-2000 feet sea water) causes High Pressure Nervous Syndrome (HPNS) - nervous tremor, etc. In some experimental diving the narcotic effects of N2 have been used to 'balance' the HPNS effect of helium (a breathing mix known as trimix, the third component of course being 02). However, it is not an antidote, just pitting two sets of symptoms against each other. Conceivably, you could mix He in with your Xe-O2 mix to counter the narcotic effect of Xe, but the mixture/pressure ratios you'd need would probably not be denser than water -- sorry, no floating. Oh, and watch the O2 partial pressure level - O2 is highly toxic at partial pressures above 30psi or so, even less in some cases. -- Alastair JW Mayer BIX: al UUCP: ...!utzoo!dciem!nrcaer!cognos!geovision!alastair "What we really need is a good 5-cent/gram launch vehicle."
howard@cpocd2.UUCP (Howard A. Landman) (10/09/87)
In article <18@krafla.UUCP> frisk@krafla.UUCP (Fridrik Skulason) writes: >Can anyone tell me if a high-pressure mixture of xenon and oxygen would >be breathable. Probably, but I believe that Xenon (for not-too-clearly understood reasons) is a mild anaesthetic. So you might not be able to feel anything, or even stay awake. This is really a sci.med question. >The reason I am asking this is that it should be possible to create a mixture >with density just above that of water. >Now - if this mixture is breathable - it should be possible to float around in >this. Just imagine it - we would finally be able to fly like the birds. :-) Just imagine it - your lungs would be filled with something denser than water, adding greatly to the average density of your body! A highly adipose person might float, but I (skin, bones, and a little muscle) sink even in water if I expel most of the air from my lungs. Maybe you'd have better luck with Radon; it's heavier. :-) :-) :-O |-< -- Howard A. Landman ...!{oliveb,...}!intelca!mipos3!cpocd2!howard <- works howard%cpocd2%sc.intel.com@RELAY.CS.NET <- recently flaky "Unpick a ninny - recall Mecham"