[sci.physics] Re^2: HV Cap Fun!

mbe@dde.uucp (Martin Berg) (06/01/89)

vaso@mips.COM (Vaso Bovan) writes:

>A Paradox of Capacitor Energy Storage

>I've heard several competing answers to this paradox. None is entirely
>satisfactory:

>Consider an ideal 2uF (for computational ease) capacitor charged by a 10 volt 
>source. Eventually, the energy stored is (1/2)*CV^2=100 joules.
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You forgot that the 'u' in 2 uF stands for 'micro', that is 2*10^-6 F.
So the energy stored is 100 uJ (100*10^-6 J). But this does not affect 
your 'Paradox of Capacitor Energy Storage'.

>Consider the capacitor to be isolated from the voltage source, and then
>directly shorted across an identical (ideal) capacitor. Eventually, the
>voltage across each capacitor will be 5V. Now, there are two equally
>charged capacitors, each storing (1/2)*CV^2= 25 joules, for a total of
>of 50 joules.  What happened to the other 50 joules ?

The current in a capacitor is defined as: I = - dV/dt * C (that
is: change in voltage pr. sec. times the capacity, forget the sign). 

This means that you cannot change the voltage across a capacitor
instantaneously : this would inply infinite current.

It also means that when you short your two capacitors across each other,
then the current will rise to an level where internal resistance and wire
resistance is not neglectable.

When this happens then you loose energy in form of heat.

Also: when you start shorting the capacitors, you will get a spark -
this is also a waste of enery.

If you use an inductor when connecting the capacitors then you 
would not loose energy (ok, ok a little if the components is not ideal).

But then the resulting voltage would not be 5 V - it would be 7.07 V 
(for energy preservation).

By the way: I'm not so sure that the resulting voltage would be 5 V
in your example.
-- 
mbe@dde.dk                        |  "The answer is 42"
or                                |  D. Adams
..uunet!mcvax!enea!dkuug!dde!mbe  |

siegman@sierra.Stanford.EDU (Anthony E. Siegman) (06/02/89)

This problem is sometimes known as the "Case of the Nefarious
Joule Thief".

Put a small resistor, or a small inductance, or both, in series with
the switch; solve the circuit equations for the transient behavior
starting when the switch closes; and examine for physical
significance, considering particularly the case when the series R
or L tend to zero

fransvo@maestro.htsa.aha.nl (Frans van Otten) (06/02/89)

Martin Berg writes:

>Vaso Bovan writes:
>
>>A Paradox of Capacitor Energy Storage
>
>By the way: I'm not so sure that the resulting voltage would be 5 V
>in your example.

Of course it would be 5 volt.  The following formula applies to capacitors:

q = C*u   (the charge is the capacitance times the voltage)

Math for the problem (both capacitors have capacitance C):

Before:

q1 = C * 10 V = 10C coulomb
q2 = C *  0 V =  0C coulomb

Total charge 10 coulomb.

after:

q1 = C * 5 V = 5C coulomb
q2 = C * 5 V = 5C coulomb

Total charge 10 coulomb.
-- 
Frans van Otten                     |   fransvo@maestro.htsa.aha.nl    or
Algemene Hogeschool Amsterdam       |   fransvo@htsa.uucp              or
Technische en Maritieme Faculteit   |   [[...!]backbone!]htsa!fransvo

abali@parts.eng.ohio-state.edu (Bulent Abali) (06/02/89)

In article <147@sierra.stanford.edu> siegman@sierra.UUCP (Anthony E. Siegman) writes:
>Put a small resistor, or a small inductance, or both, in series with
>the switch; solve the circuit equations for the transient behavior
>starting when the switch closes; and examine for physical
>significance, considering particularly the case when the series R
>or L tend to zero

Exactly. A resistor R can be assumed in series with the switch,
and the energy dissipated on R can be derived (easy). The resulting equation
will show that the energy dissipated is R independent. One half of
the original energy of the system will be lost on R, regardless of its
value. If L is assumed instead of R, we can arrive at the same
conclusion except that the 1/2 energy will not be lost, but will 
be stored in the inductor regardless of its value.


-=-
Bulent Abali
Ohio State Univ., Dept.of Electrical Eng.
2015 Neil Av. Columbus, Ohio 43210
abali@baloo.eng.ohio-state.edu

siegman@sierra.Stanford.EDU (Anthony E. Siegman) (06/03/89)

There's a mechanical analog to the switched-capacitor "where did half
the energy go" problem.  A slow conveyor belt rolls past a loading
chute which dumps dirt or coal or something on the belt at a fixed
rate dm/dt (m=mass of dirt dumped).  The dirt is instantaneously
accelerated to the belt's steady velocity v as it hits the belt's
surface.  Force required to keep pulling the belt (no friction) = f =
dp/dt where dp = dm v = momentum added to the mass dm.  Work done in
time dt = f dx = dm v^^2 (using dx = v dt).  But kinetic energy added
to (or carried by) the dirt is only (1/2) dm v^^2.  Where's the other
half?