chris@spock (Chris Ott) (02/09/89)
Sorry if this is a re-post, but the article didn't go through the first
time.
Boy! Are you tired of hearing the same old arguments going around about the
same old topic, using the same old metaphors?
I believe we need to speed things up a bit, don't you.
PREPARE YOURSELF!
The following ideas may be hazardous to your DOGMA!
I make no excuse for my utopianism and my optimism.
We are running out of time, so somebody has to do it!
And I'm getting tired od people arguing abd worrying about the future
instead of creating it. Anyway.
HERE WE GO!
Limits? I see no present evidence of limits? A limit can only be proved
completly and beyond a shawdow of a doubt, after it has been tested an
infinite amount of time, under an infinite number of conditions, forever.
Re: Space - Everything should be happening in space.
Everything that can be done on Earth can be done in space much more
efficiently and cheaply. All modes of gravity can be simulated in space.
All temperatures; all manufacturing.
In the book "Interstellar Migration and the Human Experience", David
Criswell, Ph.D, demonstrates that there are enough resources in the
asteroid belt to construct an extremely massive infra-structure
consisting of 40 trillion people with 40,000 trillion tons of supporting
structure, occupying aporx. 1 billion cubic km - which is 1 millionth of
the space available in the L4 and L5 regions alone! All of these people
could be in contact via laser communication with 0.2 seconds in one
L-volume and aprox 1 second to the other L-volume and Earth. Since space
is frictionless, transportation between any two points in this matrix
would be almost nothing. This would end phase 1 of Solar system
development according to Criswell.
He goes on to talk about phases 2 and 3 which would hinge upon the
theoretical technology (perhaps extremely high energy lasers) to
dismantle the outer planets, and then mine the sun. He has shown that
it would be theoretically possible to convert the sun into a white
dwarf, which would extend the lifetime of SOL 1,115 times. He calls
this process, "Stellar Lifting".
Using stellar lifting as a away of collecting the higher elements,
Criswell shows that a civilization consiting of 10(16) - 10(21) power
humans on a surface area equivalent to 1 billion earths would be
possible. This civilization, due to Sol's extended lifetime, would have
a potential lifespan of at least 10 trillion years. All of this is
possible within the solar system.
What limits?
When I log on again, I will talk about nanotechnology, zero-point energy,
immortality, intelligence increase using neural, genetic and nanotech
engineering, info-space, hypermedia and human evolution evolving towards
self-replicating systems.
BYE! BYE! for now.
Paul Hughes | Internet: guest@spock.ame.arizona.edu
1386 N. Country Club Rd. | UUCP: {allegra,cmcl2,hao!noao}!arizona!
Tucson, AZ 85716 | amethyst!spock!guest
"Anything is possible through imagination and Will."myers@hpfcdj.HP.COM (Bob Myers) (02/11/89)
> L-volume and aprox 1 second to the other L-volume and Earth. Since space > is frictionless, transportation between any two points in this matrix > would be almost nothing. This would end phase 1 of Solar system > development according to Criswell. Space may be "frictionless", but that doesn't make travelling in space cheap. As Saint Isaac pointed out, if you start to go in one direction, you're gonna keep it up. The expensive part? Can you say "delta-vee"? Bob Myers | "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but {the known universe} | most of the time he will pick himself up and continue." !hplabs!hpfcla!myers | - Winston Churchill
rodman@mfci.UUCP (Paul Rodman) (02/15/89)
In article <16520003@hpfcdj.HP.COM> myers@hpfcdj.HP.COM (Bob Myers) writes: > >Space may be "frictionless", but that doesn't make travelling in space cheap. >As Saint Isaac pointed out, if you start to go in one direction, you're >gonna keep it up. The expensive part? Can you say "delta-vee"? > Oh, Come on! There are lots of ways of storing energy from incoming masses in rotation, and extracting it later for outgoing masses. With enough such systems in various directions the energy costs could approach zero. G. O'neil had such an idea for getting between cylinder cites.s Cay YOU say "L = I**2 x r"? :-) Paul Rodman rodman@mfci.uucp
Castell@UMASS.BITNET (Chip Olson@somewhere.out.there) (02/15/89)
From: amethyst!spock!chris@noao.edu (Chris Ott) A general comment: You have got to be kidding. >I make no excuse for my utopianism and my optimism. >We are running out of time, so somebody has to do it! >And I'm getting tired od people arguing abd worrying about the future >instead of creating it. Anyway. I don't see you doing any different from the rest of us. If we're running out of time, why don't we concentrate on keeping this earth in some sort of habitable shape instead of proposing all these wild fantasies that may be technologically possible, but could never be accomplished within our lifetimes. >Limits? I see no present evidence of limits? A limit can only be proved >completly and beyond a shawdow of a doubt, after it has been tested an >infinite amount of time, under an infinite number of conditions, forever. I could use the same theorem to cast doubt on the existence of the earth, or even on my own existence. Give me a break. > In the book "Interstellar Migration and the Human Experience", David > Criswell, Ph.D, demonstrates that there are enough resources in the > asteroid belt to construct an extremely massive infra-structure > consisting of 40 trillion people with 40,000 trillion tons of supporting > structure, occupying aporx. 1 billion cubic km - which is 1 millionth of > the space available in the L4 and L5 regions alone! All of these people > could be in contact via laser communication with 0.2 seconds in one > L-volume and aprox 1 second to the other L-volume and Earth. Since space > is frictionless, transportation between any two points in this matrix > would be almost nothing. This would end phase 1 of Solar system > development according to Criswell. So what? What relevance does this fascinating bit of trivia have to the problems facing the world today? Take your head out of the clouds, wake up and smell the ozone. > He goes on to talk about phases 2 and 3 which would hinge upon the > theoretical technology (perhaps extremely high energy lasers) to > dismantle the outer planets, and then mine the sun. He has shown that Do you have any idea what you are saying? Since we've already pretty much ruined this planet, we should go out and carve up the others? > it would be theoretically possible to convert the sun into a white > dwarf, which would extend the lifetime of SOL 1,115 times. He calls > this process, "Stellar Lifting". And just what would this do to the Sun's output? It'd counteract the greenhouse effect but good, that's for sure. And if the process changes the mass of the Sun (stellar engineering isn't my field), the orbits of every planet,asteroid and comet in the solar system would be radically altered. > Using stellar lifting as a away of collecting the higher elements, > Criswell shows that a civilization consiting of 10(16) - 10(21) power > humans on a surface area equivalent to 1 billion earths would be > possible. This civilization, due to Sol's extended lifetime, would have > a potential lifespan of at least 10 trillion years. All of this is > possible within the solar system. Excuse me, but just what makes you think we as a species are going to last that long? Even if we manage to avoid blowing ourselves up, the solar system has been around for only 4.5 billion years. We as a species have been around for a few million. Compress that 4.5b years into a single year, and _Homo sapiens_ shows up at 9 pm or so on December 31 (just in time to crash the New Years' party). I hate to burst your bubble, but you and I are just a couple of hairless apes with ideas above our station. It is these kinds of attitudes that have ruined and are still ruining the balance of life on this planet. Now you want to go out and ruin the balance of the solar system for good measure. > What limits? Sure, "What limits?" I won't dispute that it's theoretically possible to accomplish all this. But by the same token, it is just as theoretically possible, and far more practically possible, to fix the damage we've done to this planet (it's called Earth... you were born there... remember?). None of what you propose can possibly, or even theoretically, be accom- plished in your lifetime, or my lifetime, or those of our children and great-grandchildren. I'm far more interested in making this a more livable planet for them than I am in pipe dreams. @#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&*@#$%&* ( ) Chip Olson, 808-B McNamara, UMass, Amherst, MA 01003 (413) 546-4474. :\^^/: "Why be difficult when with a bit of effort you can be impossible?" (@::@) Bitnet: Castell@UMass.Bitnet \\// Internet: Castell%UMass.Bitnet@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (oo) UUCP: {blah!blah!blah}!mit-eddie!castell@umass.bitnet "" (or something like that)
mvp@v7fs1.UUCP (Mike Van Pelt) (02/16/89)
Sometime earlier, amethyst!spock!chris@noao.edu (Chris Ott) wrote a rather science-fictional message about what we could do in space. I considered responding, because while I am firmly convinced we should start moving out into space *RIGHT NOW*, I don't think that plans that neglect such minor considerations as the cost of delta-V, and shuffle off into the ozone of "stellar lifting" are particularly helpful to the cause. Then, in article <890214185544858.AFZR@Mars.UCC.UMass.EDU> Castell@UMASS.BITNET (Chip Olson@somewhere.out.there) writes: >A general comment: You have got to be kidding. A reasonable question. Not to defend wild fantasies such as turning the sun into a white dwarf, of course, I see some serious problems with Chip Olson's position, too. ... >Do you have any idea what you are saying? Since we've already pretty much >ruined this planet, we should go out and carve up the others? ... >I hate to burst your bubble, but you >and I are just a couple of hairless apes with ideas above our station. >It is these kinds of attitudes that have ruined and are still ruining >the balance of life on this planet. Now you want to go out and ruin the >balance of the solar system for good measure. ... >I'm far more interested in making this a more >livable planet ... than I am in pipe dreams. Granted that much of Chris Ott's message consisted of far-out pipe dreams, there's an element of truth there. We have two choices: Move forward, or slide backwards. Staying in the same place is also a pipe dream, because it is impossible in the medium-to-long term. How long can you keep dividing up ever smaller pieces of a shrinking pie? Not long enough. Without access to the resources of the solar system, we're headed back to the 14'th century, one way or another. Either by uncontrolled collapse, or (scarier...) by being dragged back by Ecocrats. Either way requires somehow disposing of the majority of the Earth's population, and I'd far rather that that be something we tried to avoid and failed than something that we, like Hitler or Pol Pot, deliberately planned. So, forward. Much of what we can do in space (Not pipe dreams like solar lifting, but solidly possible things, like SPS and capture of Earth-intersecting asteroids) can help to take some of the pressure off Earth's ecosystem. New energy sources and sources of platinum- group metals makes it much less likely that war will break out over mid-east oil or South African mines. It will buy us a little time until we can figure out what the next step should be. Which may be enough. -- Mike Van Pelt Video 7 ...ames!vsi1!v7fs1!mvp There are no perfect power sources. There is no such thing as 100% perfect safety. There is no such thing as zero environmental impact short of the entire human race committing mass suicide.