mikes@tekecs.TEK.COM (Michael Sellers) (10/16/86)
[If the line-eater did not exist, we would be forced to create it]
Here is a subject that I don't recall seeing on the net, and that ought to
provoke some interesting discussion: Near Death Experiences (NDEs). I have
heard about these for the past few years, but had not read any personal
accounts before a few days ago. The book I read is called _Return from
Tomorrow_, by George G. Ritchie. He's a psychiatrist in Richmond Virginia
who had the extraordinary experience of "dieing" for 9 minutes when he
was 20 years old in 1943. While he was "dead" (no pulse, respiration, BP),
he had a series of supernatural encounters, centering around his meeting
Jesus Christ and seeing the fate of others who had died, and travelling
great distances out of his body. His case may differ from others (I haven't
read any others so I don't know) in that he is intimately aquainted with the
vagaries of interal human experience, has an extremely well-documented
case (including a notarized affadavit from the attending doctor that his
case had to be "explained in terms of other than natural means"), and is
able to seriously and soberly tell his tale. His was also the inspiration
for Raymond Moody to write his book, _Life After Life_, which tells of the
experiences of numerous people who maintain they have had such experiences.
I have heard several different theories regarding NDEs, all of which seem
at best lame attempts to shoo away that which defies all rational explanation
within the world as we know it. The ones I have heard include: hallucination
at a time when the body is undergoing extreme stress (wrong on both counts;
the experiences have little similarity to hallucinations, and often the body
is under little or no stress as it dies); hearkening back to the earliest
memory, that of the birth process (people have spoken of the dark tunnel
leading to a bright light, which others have maintained is the memory of
being born vaginally, even though the baby is in no position to see something
like this), and most have at some point grumbled about the truthfulness of
those telling of the experience.
Dr. Ritchie's tale is quite compelling; while I would like to know more about
what others think of these things, I have no question in my mind that he is
telling the truth and that the things he says happened actually did happen.
For the medical-type people out there, what is the current opinion about
NDEs? What are your personal opinions? For the non-religious/non-Christian,
you might want to read Dr. Ritchie's book (it could easily be read in a few
hours), if for no other reason than to get a very good insight as to why
many Christians feel as strongly and certainly as they do about their faith.
--
Mike Sellers
UUCP: {...your spinal column here...}!tektronix!tekecs!mikes
"The goal of AI is not yet insight."cc100jr@gitpyr.gatech.EDU (Joel Rives) (10/20/86)
In article <6310@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> root@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU (Charles Hedrick) writes: >Does anyone know what near-death experiences are like in non-Christian >cultures? If even those who had never heard of Christ met him under >those circumstances, it would be very convincing indeed. If people >always encounter the supreme being of their own religious tradition, >it might or might not support the idea of a supreme being, but would >give no evidence as to his nature. You might find a reading of the Tibetan Book of the Dead interesting. -- Joel Rives gatech!gitpyr!cc100jr There is no place to seek the mind; It is like the footprints of the birds in the sky.
wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) (10/20/86)
In article <7775@tekecs.TEK.COM> mikes@tekecs.TEK.COM (Michael Sellers) writes: > ... For the non-religious/non-Christian, >you might want to read Dr. Ritchie's book (it could easily be read in a few >hours), if for no other reason than to get a very good insight as to why >many Christians feel as strongly and certainly as they do about their faith. In his book titled (I think) "Eternal Life?", theologian Hans Kung dismisses such experiences as evidence of life beyond the grave on the grounds that they represent the last stages of life rather than the first stages of an afterlife. I've also read that non-Christians (i.e., Buddhists, Hindus, etc.) experience NDEs somewhat differently: although certain aspects of the experience (the dark tunnel/light at the end) seem to be fairly constant, the manifestations of a religious nature differ depending on your religious upbringing. So a Christian has an encounter with Christ, and a Hindu has an encounter with Krishna. I've also never heard anyone claim that EVERYONE who is brought back from the edge of death has an experience of this sort... seems like pretty weak evidence for a "Christian" afterlife. -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly
jimo@phred.UUCP (10/22/86)
In article <7775@tekecs.TEK.COM> mikes@tekecs.TEK.COM (Michael Sellers) writes: > [discussion of a book on near-death experiences] >... While he was "dead" (no pulse, respiration, BP), >he had a series of supernatural encounters... >I have heard several different theories regarding NDEs, all of which seem >at best lame attempts to shoo away that which defies all rational explanation >within the world as we know it... It would be interesting to have EEG data for these experiences. Steven Laberge, in Lucid Dreaming, postulates that the near-death experience is really a lucid dream. If the data were similar to REM sleep, it would seem to support this claim. Most NDEs probably occur in circumstances where it's difficult to record an EEG, however... tikal!phred!jimo
mikes@tekecs.UUCP (10/27/86)
In article <1235@hoptoad.uucp>, sunny@hoptoad.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) writes: > I know a very psychic lady who has particulary been that way ever since she > had to push open her own drawer at the morgue. Commonly reported is a total > awareness of what was going on while out of body. The real factor involved > in death, is the attachment by the silver cord from the physical body's > 3rd chackra to the astral body's 3rd chackra. When you are asleep, or in a > coma, you still have that connecting cord. When that cord is broken, the > spirit has left that body, and the body has become "dead". Note that, > the wonders of modern medical science are perfectly capable of sustaining > the mass of cells in the usual pattern of blood circulation and respiration, > but without the spirit, that is, without the connected astral body, it's just > so much dead meat. > > Sunny When I originally posted an article to BOTH net.med and talk.religion.misc, I knew it was a chancey thing. There may be both religious and medical aspects to NDEs (as well as personal/testimonial ones), and I had hoped that the two could at worst be treated separately, if not complementarily. Oh well. What I *specifically* want to stay away from are people giving pat answers based on religious or cultural tradition that are unverifiable and possess little in the way of informational content. I would like to see the discussion of NDEs go on. I would not like it to become (yet another) place for postulating our own particular conclusions for what causes them (theories, hypotheses, and ideas are different). Has there been any research done on them in the past 50 years or so? Has anyone on the net had an NDE? If they are a product of acute anoxia, why do they only happen when someone dies (as opposed to being comatose or in a different sort of anoxic condition such as drowning)? What about the hypothesis that they are caused by massive release of endorphins? Can we test this? What about cross-cultural studies? Have any Hindus come back and suddenly switched to Christianity (or vice versa)? Can we distinguish between people who have really had these experiences and those who are pretending (I think we can)? What does it mean if we can't explain them with science? Are they unexplicable or just beyond our present means? Craig, do you have any med school stories/ rumors/legends/theories (take your pick :-) about these things? These are just a few of the questions I'd like to get opinions on. Stuff about the names of the cherubim that greet you or the length of the dark tunnel or which chakra it is that the silver cord is attached to have little meaning or place here. 'Nuff said. On with the show. -- Mike Sellers UUCP: {...your spinal column here...}!tektronix!tekecs!mikes "The goal of AI is not yet insight."
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (10/27/86)
In article <1235@hoptoad.uucp>, sunny@hoptoad.uucp (Sunny Kirsten) writes: > I know a very psychic lady who has particulary been that way ever since she > had to push open her own drawer at the morgue. Commonly reported is a total > awareness of what was going on while out of body. The real factor involved > in death, is the attachment by the silver cord from the physical body's > 3rd chackra to the astral body's 3rd chackra. ... ^^^^^^^^^^^ Uh, do you think you could enlighten some of us as to WHERE the ``3rd chackra'' along with the 1st and 2nd of same are located in the human body? I checked in a medical dictionary, two anatomy reference texts, and an unabridged English language dictionary, and can't seem to find the term listed anywhere. Also, do cats have any chackra(e)? ==> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York ==> UUCP: {allegra|decvax|rocksanne|rocksvax|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry ==> VOICE: 716/688-1231 {hplabs|ihnp4|seismo|utzoo}!/ ==> FAX: 716/741-9635 {G1,G2,G3} "Have you hugged your cat today?"