D0430@PUCC.BITNET (Paul Lansky) (11/13/86)
I am a musician and have spent years teaching, singing, writing, playing, etc., and have dealt with lots of ears from incredible to crummy. Here, however, is an interesting fact which has me completely baffled. If you take a group of untrained singers, none of whom have absolute pitch, but all of whom can carry a tune, and have them sing without instruments in a key made mostly of white keys (C,D,F,G, etc) almost without fail (this has happened to me dozens of times) the group as a whole will drift flat, usually a semitone and end up in a black key (Cflat, Dflat, Fflat, Gflat etc, relatively), **and stay there**. BUT---if you start them out in a black key, such as F#, they will not drift, but will stay where they are. In all cases, without instruments I haven't the foggiest idea why this will happen. I've talked with choral directors, and they confirm this, particularly if they are dealing with amateur singers. It leads me to believe that there is a lot about pitch memory that we don't understand and that many of the distinctions between absolute pitch and normal hearing are too simple. I'd be interested in the experiences of others in this area. Paul Lansky bitnet==d0430@pucc Music Department uucp == princeton!winnie!paul Princeton University
suhre@trwrb.UUCP (Maurice E. Suhre) (11/14/86)
In article <1355@PUCC.BITNET> D0430@PUCC.BITNET writes: (discussion of singers drifting flat from white notes to black, but not black to white). >I'd be interested in the experiences of others in this area. I used to accompany a mixed chorus here at work. The quality of the singers varied from very good to very poor. When they tried a capella, they would usually drift flat, anywhere from a quarter tone to a full step! I believe that it was primarily the bass section at fault. That is, they would go too low when they went down to the low notes. That would drag everyone else down with them. > >Paul Lansky bitnet==d0430@pucc >Music Department uucp == princeton!winnie!paul >Princeton University -- Maurice Suhre {decvax,sdcrdcf,ihnp4,ucbvax}!trwrb!suhre
blatt@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Miriam Blatt) (11/15/86)
I am a violinist (amateur - actually I am studying computer science), and
since my mother teaches Suzuki violin I've had some exposure to teaching
young kids (to help her out). One particularly recalcitrant boy who is the
son of a family friend became my responsibility for a while, partly because
he had some respect and friendship for me so there was a little hope.
He was a classic tone deaf person. I would play a note on the piano, then ask
him to sing it and he'd miss by a few octaves - he wasn't even close to the
right degree of the scale. So I would tell him to sing a little higher, and
gradually get him to sing the note I was playing. He slowly grew to recognize
when he was right, and did get a lot better at doing this faster.
I can't recall exactly how far we got, however, I think it would no longer be
accurate to label him tone deaf. Unfortunately, his mother gave the violin
lessons such low priority that eventually she just stopped bringing him.
Anyway, my experience is that tone deafness is simply a matter of lack of
exposure to music and hearing can be trained.
I wish you luck with your child. Don't give up so soon.
Miriam Blatt
blatt@amadeus.stanford.edu
...!{hplabs,decwrl}!shasta!blattjrb@wdl1.UUCP (John R Blaker) (11/18/86)
I have been in choirs off and on for 14 years (bass/baritone). I have also noticed that choirs tend to go flat when singing a capella. I remember only one instance when we didn't go flat. We ended up a whole tone sharp. In most of the choirs I've been in, all the basses were following one person with a strong voice (ie loud) usually me. My teacher has pointed out a tendency for me to go flat (usually 1/8 to 1/4 tone), especially when I haven't had a chance to warm up. (An extended warmup period usually helps). If you have strong singers, mixing them up (so that noone is next to someone singing the same part) helps. Everyone is forced to listen to the cords rather than just their own part.
roz@l.cc.purdue.edu.UUCP (11/19/86)
In article <1420@trwrb.UUCP> suhre@trwrb.UUCP (Maurice E. Suhre) writes: >In article <1355@PUCC.BITNET> D0430@PUCC.BITNET writes: >(discussion of singers drifting flat from white notes to black, >but not black to white). >>I'd be interested in the experiences of others in this area. >> >>Paul Lansky bitnet==d0430@pucc >>Music Department uucp == princeton!winnie!paul >>Princeton University > >they would usually drift flat, anywhere from a quarter >tone to a full step! I believe that it was primarily the bass section >at fault. That is, they would go too low when they went down to the >low notes. That would drag everyone else down with them. > >-- >Maurice Suhre > >{decvax,sdcrdcf,ihnp4,ucbvax}!trwrb!suhre /* I'm cross-posting this to rec.music.misc, as the discussion is becoming less appropriate for sci.med */ My own little experience: I was assistant director of an amateur church choir, and the same thing happened. Actually, it happened both ways: without accompaniment, the bass section went too low on the low notes and the soprano section went too high on the high notes. Now, since most choral works go low in the bass more often than high on the soprano, the choir drifted flat (eg. a piece may have bass singing low G, A or B continuously for several measures, but it would make soprano sing high E, F and G only a few beats at a time). Once we sang a piece that required the soprano section to sing several G major scales in a row, and when they sang without accompaniment during rehearsal, they drifted sharp so quickly the scales got out of their range ! Which goes to show that no section has the monopoly on sloppiness. =========== Hao-Nhien Q. Vu (pur-ee!stat-l!vu) (vu@l.cc.purdue.edu) [That's stat-"ell", not stat-"one"] -- Hao-Nhien Q. Vu (pur-ee!stat-l!vu) (vu@l.cc.purdue.edu) [That's stat-"ell", not stat-"one"]