bfu@ifi.uio.no (Thomas Gramstad) (12/19/89)
Sometimes in science fiction etc. one encounters the idea of deep divers breathing liquid instead of gas (the last example is in the movie The Abyss). What is the rationale for this idea, if any? Is it at all possible for a human being to breathe and obtain oxygen from a liquid? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Thomas Gramstad bfu@ifi.uio.no -------------------------------------------------------------------
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (12/20/89)
bfu@ifi.uio.no (Thomas Gramstad) writes: >Sometimes in science fiction etc. one encounters the idea of >deep divers breathing liquid instead of gas (the last example >is in the movie The Abyss). What is the rationale for this >idea, if any? Is it at all possible for a human being to >breathe and obtain oxygen from a liquid? Definitely. Many experiments have been done with various fluorocarbons and lab animals. The idea is to fill the lungs with something that doesn't cause as many problems under high-pressure situations. -- Chuq Von Rospach <+> chuq@apple.com <+> [This is myself speaking] For herein may be seen noble chivalry, courtesy, humanity, friendliness, cowardice, murder, hate, virtue and sin. Do after the good and leave the evil, and it shall bring you to good fame and renown. -- Malory
mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) (12/20/89)
I've seen pictures of this done with rats. I believe the liquid is a fluorocarbon, with air or oxygen bubbled through it.
james968@walt.cc.utexas.edu (James Hammett) (12/21/89)
I seem to remember from when the TV show "That's Incredible" was on they had a demonstration of a liquid that animals coould breath in. I think it had something to do with fluids found in the uterus.
muller@moore.seas.upenn.edu (Bill Muller) (12/21/89)
In article <CMM.0.88.630065705.bfu@goll.uio.no> Thomas Gramstad <bfu> writes: >Sometimes in science fiction etc. one encounters the idea of >deep divers breathing liquid instead of gas (the last example >is in the movie The Abyss). What is the rationale for this >idea, if any? Is it at all possible for a human being to >breathe and obtain oxygen from a liquid? > The September 8 issue of _Science_ magazine has a short article on this in the "Research News" section. The use of perfluorocarbon fluid for oxygen delivery has recently been done for the first time in humans by Dr. Thomas Shaffer of Temple, though this had been done in animals in 1966. Perfluorocarbons can carry more dissolved oxygen than air, and can deliver this oxygen at lower pressures than, for example, a mechanical ventilator would require. Thus, they are being investigated for use in premature infants, whose lungs are underdeveloped and cannot handle the high pressures of mechanical ventilation. The technique, as applied in the human test, does not fill the lung with fluid for more than about 15 minutes; the fluid is only used at this point to expand the underdeveloped alveoli (which have inadequate surfactant), and the low surface tension of the perfluorocarbon keeps these alveoli inflated when the lung is drained. There are other potential applications for the technique; I suggest you find the article if you want more information. By the way, liquid breathing apparatus designed by Dr. Shaffer was cited explicitly in the novelizaton of "The Abyss". Bill Muller (muller@moore.seas.upenn.edu) University of Pennsylvania Department of Bioengineering
howard@53iss6.Waterloo.NCR.COM (Howard Steel) (12/21/89)
In article <CMM.0.88.630065705.bfu@goll.uio.no> Thomas Gramstad <bfu> writes: >Sometimes in science fiction etc. one encounters the idea of >deep divers breathing liquid instead of gas (the last example >is in the movie The Abyss). What is the rationale for this >idea, if any? The rationale is that a large body of liquid would have a good supply of oxygen disolved in it and thus the need to carry an air supply with us would be removed. >Is it at all possible for a human being to breathe and obtain oxygen from a liquid? Well, rats have been fitted with a water tight membrane across their mouths that allowed for transfer of gas but not liquid; the rodent subjects were able to quite easily breathe under-water for over an hour (they were removed because it was felt at the time that longer periods would serve little purpose in the initial studies...besides its tough to cut the little devils up under water and get decent observations). These tests were conducted in fish tanks, so obviously the question arises about the effect pressure would have, and how does a larger organism (ie man) with its increased requirements for oxygen make out. Don't know. An old argument states that if there was enough air to support the energy demands of a highly developed brain, then we would have a lot smarter fish. -- / / / / / / / / / / :-(I Think, Therefore I Am, I Think :-) / / / / / / / / / / / Howard.Steel@Waterloo.NCR.COM NCR CANADA LTD. - 580 Weber St. N / / (519)884-1710 Ext 570 Waterloo, Ont., N2J 4G5 / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /
toms@ncifcrf.gov (Tom Schneider) (12/21/89)
In article <178@53iss6.Waterloo.NCR.COM> howard@53iss6.Waterloo.NCR.COM (Howard Steel) writes: >In article <CMM.0.88.630065705.bfu@goll.uio.no> Thomas Gramstad <bfu> writes: > >>Is it at all possible for a human being to breathe and obtain oxygen from a >liquid? > >Well, rats have been fitted with a water tight membrane across their mouths >that allowed for transfer of gas but not liquid; the rodent subjects were able >to quite easily breathe under-water for over an hour ... > These tests were conducted in fish tanks, >so obviously the question arises about the effect pressure would have, and >how does a larger organism (ie man) with its increased requirements for oxygen >make out. Don't know. >/ Howard.Steel@Waterloo.NCR.COM NCR CANADA LTD. - 580 Weber St. N / >/ (519)884-1710 Ext 570 Waterloo, Ont., N2J 4G5 / Could you find a reference for this? If the rate of accumulation of oxygen is not high enough, then perhaps a small motor could be used to pass the liquid by the membrane. Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to scuba dive without any tanks for indefinite periods of time? Tom Schneider National Cancer Institute Laboratory of Mathematical Biology Frederick, Maryland 21701-1013 toms@ncifcrf.gov
njs@scifi.UUCP (Nicholas J. Simicich) (12/21/89)
In article <25196@cup.portal.com> mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) writes: >I've seen pictures of this done with rats. I believe the liquid is a >fluorocarbon, with air or oxygen bubbled through it. Many or all of us have, in fact, seen pictures of this being done with a rat. The rat breathing liquid in the recent movie, "The Abyss", was an actual demonstration of this technique. (The humans were not breathing liquid, as I understand. that was an effect, with helmets filled with water.) -- Nick Simicich --- uunet!bywater!scifi!njs --- njs@ibm.com (Internet)
woods@robohack.UUCP (Greg A. Woods) (12/25/89)
In article <18365@netnews.upenn.edu> muller@moore.seas.upenn.edu (Bill Muller) writes: > In article <CMM.0.88.630065705.bfu@goll.uio.no> Thomas Gramstad <bfu> writes: > >Sometimes in science fiction etc. one encounters the idea of > >deep divers breathing liquid instead of gas (the last example > >is in the movie The Abyss). What is the rationale for this > >idea, if any? Is it at all possible for a human being to > >breathe and obtain oxygen from a liquid? >[....] > There are other potential applications for the technique; I suggest you > find the article if you want more information. By the way, liquid breathing > apparatus designed by Dr. Shaffer was cited explicitly in the novelizaton of > "The Abyss". In issue #39 of _cinefex ...the journal of cinematic illusions_ there are a couple of paragraphs describing the use of breathing fluid in the film _The Abyss_. The premise in the film is that a fluid breathing suit will allow a diver to go below what are considered the normal physiological limits of diving. Filling the lungs with fluid will relieve the tremendous pressures on a gas filled body at tremendous depth, not to mention the advantages of using a wet suit under such pressures. I would also guess that some of the problems with dissolved gases in the blood will be lessened. Of course the problems of keeping warm will be enhanced! It may also be possible to obtain sufficient oxygen from the surrounding water by using a larger mechanical lung. Johannes Kylstra is mentioned as the pioneer of fluid breathing research. James Cameron, the director of _The Abyss_ is quoted: "Lungs, of course, are much less efficient than gills at getting oxygen out of liquids. To compensate for this evolutionary bias, loads of oxygen must be put into the liquid breathing medium." Flourocarbon solutions hold a large amount of dissolved oxygen, possibly sufficient oxygen for life support. However there remains the problem of how to remove carbon dioxide from the body. Again Cameron: "Someone came up with the idea of using a sodium carbonate material like the kind used in air scrubbers on submarines. It worked; but the substance was caustic, so it had to be put in an emulsion form where individual particles were isolated from the lung tissue." At the time the film was made, Cameron says that all significant research in fluid breathing has ground to a halt because the FDA will not approve human use of these liquids. The very same fluorocarbon emulsion used in research happens to be marketed by 3M for electronic parts deoxidizing. This commercial version was used in the film to demonstrate the technique with a rat. The scene was done for real, with a live rat, with complete success. Ed Harris does not breath liquid in the film though. Coloured water is pumped into his helmet while he simulates the experiences of the rat, moving his chest and opening his mouth, appearing to gulp the liquid. -- Greg A. Woods woods@{robohack,gate,tmsoft,ontmoh,utgpu,gpu.utcs.Toronto.EDU,utorgpu.BITNET} +1 416 443-1734 [h] +1 416 595-5425 [w] VE3-TCP Toronto, Ontario; CANADA
chris@mimsy.umd.edu (Chris Torek) (12/26/89)
In article <CMM.0.88.630065705.bfu@goll.uio.no> bfu@ifi.uio.no (Thomas Gramstad) writes: >Sometimes in science fiction etc. one encounters the idea of >deep divers breathing liquid instead of gas (the last example >is in the movie The Abyss). What is the rationale for this >idea, if any? Is it at all possible for a human being to >breathe and obtain oxygen from a liquid? As others have said, the technique is real, although if experiments have been done on human subjects, the experimenters are keeping quiet. No one has answered the first question, however: why? The answer lies in the fact that oxygen is toxic, and nitrogen is a narcotic---fortunately, not at normal atmospheric pressure. At high pressures ordinary air can make you act drunk; at still higher pressures, it will kill you. Even a moderate increase in pressure is dangerous, because nitrogen dissolves in blood, and gets into body tissues. When the pressure is reduced, it can form bubbles, typically in the joints: this is caled the `bends', because a person with this condition has severe joint pain and stays in a bent position to alleviate the pain. These effects occur because higher pressures compress the gases, increasing the concentration of each of its components. Although gases compress, liquids do not. The idea, then, is to dissolve the necessary oxygen in an otherwise-inert liquid, keeping the concentration below the point where it is toxic, and keeping the nitrogen concentration at or below that of air at normal atmospheric pressure. Problems abound: removal of waste products (CO2), circulation of fluid, oxygenation of fluid, and so forth. I believe the middle one of the above list is the most pressing problem at the moment, at least as far as diving goes. `Breathing' the liquid used is simply too much effort. -- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7163) Domain: chris@cs.umd.edu Path: uunet!mimsy!chris