gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) (10/31/86)
I know Chris has a right to his opinion and everything, but I for
one am getting tired of hearing, every time someone proposes actually
doing something to verify or correct a stupidity created by a government,
that the consequences are dire and we should all just knuckle under.
Chris is the person who first complained about the DES posting possibly
being illegal. After I did some research to fix that, he tried to
contest the results of that research (without knowing US law -- he's
Canadian!). Now when Larry Campbell proposed that we break a bad
law and form a legal defense fund to get the law challenged in court,
he tells us how stupid all the people were who fought Sentator McCarthy's
abuse of government in the 1950's.
Chris, while living like a mouse might be fun for you, can you leave
the rest of us to our kind of fun? As somebody said, the people get
exactly the government they deserve, and I for one want a better
government and am willing to work to improve it. This means learning,
myself, how it works, and teaching it when it errs.
From the tone of your postings I would almost venture a guess that you
are a CIA disinformation operative. Arguing for the supremacy of the
government and the hopelessness of fighting the police state (McCarthy).
The general tone of "Give up! It's hopeless" is unhealthy for freedom.
--
John Gilmore {sun,ptsfa,lll-crg,ihnp4}!hoptoad!gnu jgilmore@lll-crg.arpa
Bomb, terrorist, cryptography, DES, assasinate, secret, decode, NSA, CIA, NRO.
The above is food for the NSA line eater. Add it to your .signature and
you too can help overflow the NSA's ability to scan all traffic going in or
out of the USA looking for "significant" words. (This is not a joke, sadly.)clewis@spectrix.UUCP (Chris Lewis) (11/04/86)
In article <1251@hoptoad.uucp> gnu@hoptoad.uucp (John Gilmore) writes: > I know Chris has a right to his opinion and everything, but I for > one am getting tired of hearing, every time someone proposes actually > doing something to verify or correct a stupidity created by a government, > that the consequences are dire and we should all just knuckle under. Hardly. Rather, before embarking on a "grey" area it's better to know the law, and the possible consequences. And that there may be easier ways. > Chris is the person who first complained about the DES posting possibly > being illegal. After I did some research to fix that, he tried to > contest the results of that research (without knowing US law -- he's > Canadian!). I notice that you didn't post any of that conversation. Fears about DES posting being illegal is not crap - many of the people later posting about this subject have had personal experience with restrictions (or what they thought were restrictions) in this area. Some American, some not. Because there *are* restrictions on DES, which given the vagueness and language of the law can be interpreted many ways - some of which *do* prohibit posting of software. Some of which cannot be resolved without spending a lot of time and/or money to verify - not necessarily something a casual member of this net can afford - or even AT&T sometimes. Certainly, you did quote a fair bit of the law in the mail exchanged on this topic. And, given what you quoted I did say that I thought it was probably okay to post it. I stayed out of the discussions on the net - and given the fact that you only quoted part of the law, I knew the net would have the same discussion we had. What do you expect? The legal quote you sent to me and the net (the DOC stuff) was inadequate - there were several "not withstanding other legislation" clauses, which without my prodding you probably wouldn't have looked up. And some you never did. If you had posted Ritchie's item in the first place you could have headed off most of the whole mess. Certainly, being a Canadian it's a little harder to keep up with US legislation. But, being a Canadian doesn't a-priori mean that one doesn't know anything about U.S. law. We do have libraries in the Great White North you know. The province of Ontario alone is a bigger trading partner with the US than Japan - something that Ronald Reagan has yet to learn - so we have a pretty strong interest in US trade laws. And I have done some research on a related field (privacy) in US law - though some of it is outdated by now. After all, there have been many articles on this topic in some of the trade journals (I can't put a finger on a specific one at the moment). I imagine that you didn't know much about this restrictive trade legislation before I suggested that there may be a problem. I raised a concern about exportation of it by mail - and from other postings I know that my concerns were shared by many other people. Free of invective (except for one that I apologized for before you read it). Because I didn't think you knew of this possible problem. You apparently didn't. And I'm glad you searched the law - because I learned something more about the precise details of this area. So did a lot of other people. So why the overreaction? > Now when Larry Campbell proposed that we break a bad > law and form a legal defense fund to get the law challenged in court, > he tells us how stupid all the people were who fought Sentator McCarthy's > abuse of government in the 1950's. No. They weren't stupid. I admire them a lot for standing their ground and fighting for something important that they believed in. I was pointing out how stupid and naive that the attitude "resistance is simply a matter of legal fees" is. Especially when it's someone else. It's a great way of committing professional suicide. Whether or not you win. However, if somebody does want to do something like this - with eyes open to the full consequences - I'd contribute to such a fund too. Someone who did this without exploring other avenues of getting rid of such a dumb law would be stupid. You don't stop steam-rollers by standing in front of them do you? First you ask the driver to stop. Then you ask his boss to tell him to stop... Then you put a (small) land-mine under the roller. > Chris, while living like a mouse might be fun for you, can you leave > the rest of us to our kind of fun? As somebody said, the people get > exactly the government they deserve, and I for one want a better > government and am willing to work to improve it. This means learning, > myself, how it works, and teaching it when it errs. I didn't say don't do it: The country that's lost its ability for rebellion is not a country I'd like to live in... [Imperfect remembrance of something Thomas Jefferson said. Later paraphrased by Groucho Marx and Woody Allen] people are in fact *obligated* to revolt against the emperor [when the emperor screws up] [Confucious] > From the tone of your postings I would almost venture a guess that you > are a CIA disinformation operative. Egads, I've been found out - no more paychecks! (oops, I blew my cover again - it's "paycheques"!) > Arguing for the supremacy of the > government and the hopelessness of fighting the police state (McCarthy). > The general tone of "Give up! It's hopeless" is unhealthy for freedom. You'd never get me arguing for the supremacy of any government (including ours and especially yours). Nor for the naive assumption that resistance is simply a matter of legal bills. > Bomb, terrorist, cryptography, DES, assasinate, secret, decode, NSA, CIA, NRO. > The above is food for the NSA line eater. Add it to your .signature and > you too can help overflow the NSA's ability to scan all traffic going in or > out of the USA looking for "significant" words. (This is not a joke, sadly.) Agreed. But a long way from violating the law (so far). -- Chris Lewis Spectrix Microsystems Inc, UUCP: {utzoo|utcs|yetti|genat|seismo}!mnetor!spectrix!clewis Phone: (416)-474-1955