gsmith@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU (Gene W. Smith) (01/20/88)
In article <868@xn.LL.MIT.EDU> olsen@ll-xn.UUCP (Jim Olsen) writes: >In article <18816@bu-cs.BU.EDU> bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) writes: >>You can't willfully enforce the law with the nose of a train... Such >>vigilantism is simply not allowed as much as it might appeal to your >>rambo sense of justice. >Railroads can and do enforce the law with the nose of a train. They enforce >their legal "right of way" to travel along the railway. From time to time, >they kill or maim people who obstruct this travel. This is a regrettable >but inevitable part of railroading. >Given that, is a railroad obliged to stop or slow down a train when advised >that protesters are voluntarily blocking the track? >I submit that there is no such obligation. If I voluntarily lie down on a >railroad track, and have a witness call the railroad and tell them where I >am and demand that trains be stopped there, is the railroad obliged to take >any notice? It would be nice if they slowed down, but they are within their >rights to continue at full speed and expect me to fulfil my duty to clear >the track. It is becoming increasingly clear that most likely the reason Willson lost his legs is that too many people believe in this institutional right to mayhem. As long as it is a corporation or a government, you may maim or slaughter at will, and if someone tries to stop you, then slaughter them also. This is the Death Squad psychology operating in the USA. It is fascinating and illuminating to see how many potential SS officers we have here on the net. My my! I wish you jerks would all move to Paraguay where you belong. ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 Proud member of ECIS -- "An effete corps of impudent snobs" -- I division
johnm@auscso.UUCP (John B. Meaders) (01/21/88)
In article <8801200541.AA19851@garnet.berkeley.edu> oreo!gsmith@violet.berkeley.edu (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >tries to stop you, then slaughter them also. This is the Death >Squad psychology operating in the USA. It is fascinating and >illuminating to see how many potential SS officers we have here >on the net. My my! > > I wish you jerks would all move to Paraguay where you belong. Oh my... Aren't we feeling chipper today. I love it how the label fascist gets thrown around on the net. If somebody says something you don't agree with then he/she is a fascist. Only a stupid idiot lays down in front of a train. I think it is hilarious that the engineers are suing the dweeb that thought he could stop a train. Gene, why don't you move to Moscow where YOU belong. ;-) -- John B. Meaders, Jr. 1114 Camino La Costa #3083, Austin, TX 78752 ATT: Voice: +1 (512) 451-5038 Data: +1 (512) 371-0550 UUCP: ...!ut-emx!auscso!jclyde!john ...!ut-emx!auscso!johnm
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (01/21/88)
Dribble rating: 7 (thats pretty bad) In article <2197@auscso.UUCP> johnm@auscso.UUCP (John B. Meaders, Jr.) writes: >In article <8801200541.AA19851@garnet.berkeley.edu> oreo!gsmith@violet.berkeley.edu (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >> >> I wish you jerks would all move to Paraguay where you belong. > >Oh my... Aren't we feeling chipper today. > >Gene, why don't you move to Moscow where YOU belong. ;-) >-- >John B. Meaders, Jr. 1114 Camino La Costa #3083, Austin, TX 78752 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This person has been marked for deletion. -- "...and the morning sun has yet to ride my hood ornament" richard@gryphon.CTS.COM {ihnp4!scgvaxd!cadovax, philabs!cadovax, codas!ddsw1} gryphon!richard
gsmith@BOSCO.BERKELEY.EDU (01/21/88)
In article <2197@auscso.UUCP> johnm@auscso.UUCP (John B. Meaders, Jr.) writes: >In article <8801200541.AA19851@garnet.berkeley.edu> oreo!gsmith@violet.berkeley.edu (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >I love it how the label fascist gets thrown around on the net. If somebody >says something you don't agree with then he/she is a fascist. If the jackboots fit, then wear them. A lot of people seem delighted that Willson lost his legs, and are quite ready to defend the engineers even if they were "playing chicken", which is probable. I think this is exactly the kind of mentality which makes a good Nazi. >Only a stupid >idiot lays down in front of a train. Why not find out what happened before calling someone else an idiot. It doesn't make *you* look very bright. I think it is hilarious that the >engineers are suing the dweeb that thought he could stop a train. I think it is pitiful you are so bloodthirsty and uninformed. And I think ignorance and bloody-mindedness is a bad combination, a dangerous combination, and it is, I submit, the combination which produces "facists" and many of the other depressing things we like to throw at each other as labels. Instead of carping about my nastiness, you should take a long, hard look in the mirror and think about your value system. Do you feel, secretly or not so secretly, "Good! I'm glad he lost his legs!". Do you dismiss the claims of Contra atrocities out of hand as not being relevant to a world of Realpolitik and Soviet containment? Then you are on your way to being a "facist" whether you like the label or not. ucbvax!brahms!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720 "*That* the world is, is the mystical." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
faustus@ic.Berkeley.EDU (Wayne A. Christopher) (01/21/88)
Maybe we can get some facts here for a change. I don't know the details of this case, and it seems to me that a few of them are important to the discussion... Maybe somebody can provide them. Did the officials in charge know that there were people lying on the tracks? Did the engineers see the people on the tracks, and if so, could they have stopped in time? Did they know whether or not the people could get off in time? Did the protesters see the train in time to get off the tracks, and realize that it couldn't or wouldn't stop? If the answer to the last question is yes, then clearly Willson deliberately got hit in order to become a martyr and make a point. Whether or not this is "noble" or "stupid" is a judgement call... Otherwise, either the officials are at fault, or it was just bad luck. No point in castigating Willson either way. I think the engineers' suit is probably concocted by the government to screw the protesters -- sure it made them feel bad, but it's silly to even compare their hurt to Willson's (whether he deserves it or not). Wayne
legare@ut-emx.UUCP (BoB teCh) (01/22/88)
richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: > >John B. Meaders, Jr. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > This person has been marked for deletion. > been meaning to ask you about that, richard.. you know what happens if you push bits too far, don'cha? THEY PUSH BACK. had a friend of mine what used to alter the structure of reality at will, do all sorts of weird things to it, just for kicks. rigged hisself a whole bunch of safeguards to keep it all from blowing up in his face. last month he underwent a complete existance failure. total sheer system error. just a warning BoB ^^^ teCh ^^^^ this person has been marked for deletion
lazarus@athena.mit.edu (Michael Friedman) (01/22/88)
In article <8801210557.AA01465@oreo> oreo!gsmith (Gene Ward Smith) writes: > I think it is pitiful you are so bloodthirsty and uninformed. >And I think ignorance and bloody-mindedness is a bad combination, >a dangerous combination, and it is, I submit, the combination >which produces "facists" and many of the other depressing things >we like to throw at each other as labels. When I decided to respond to this posting I first tried to define 'Fascist'. The sad thing was that I couldn't. The best thing that I could come up with was 'Something left-wingers call right-wingers when they get mad'. Perhaps that is because the word 'Fascist' has actually come to mean that in our society. Before reading further I would appreciate it if you, the reader, would attempt to define the word 'Fascism'. Good. Now continue. I checked the dictionary. Fascism - A centralized, autocratic, national regime with severely nationalistic policies, excercising regimentation of industry, commerce, and finance, and forcible suppression of opposition. I bet that most of you were wrong. How about we all agree to only use the word 'Fascist' when we mean 'Someone who supports Fascism'. That way the word will retain some of its original meaning. These are the official opinions Mike Friedman of my organization. So, TOUGH!!
gazit@ganelon.usc.edu (Salit) (01/22/88)
In article <2445@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> lazarus@athena.mit.edu (Michael Friedman) writes: >I checked the dictionary. > >Fascism - A centralized, autocratic, national regime with severely >nationalistic policies, excercising regimentation of industry, >commerce, and finance, and forcible suppression of opposition. By your definition the USSR is a fascist country. I suggest you to read some history of Italy in the thirties. It will help you to understand the subject. BTW Is not it time for you to buy a better dictionary? One with the right spelling of exercising? :-) >These are the official opinions Mike Friedman >of my organization. So, TOUGH!! Hillel Gazit gazit%ganelon.usc.edu@oberon.usc.edu
gsmith@BOSCO.BERKELEY.EDU (01/22/88)
In article <8801210557.AA01465@oreo> oreo!gsmith@violet.berkeley.edu (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >>In article <8801200541.AA19851@garnet.berkeley.edu> oreo!gsmith@violet.berkeley.edu (Gene Ward Smith) writes: > If the jackboots fit, then wear them. A lot of people seem >delighted that Willson lost his legs, and are quite ready to >defend the engineers even if they were "playing chicken", which >is probable. I think this is exactly the kind of mentality which >makes a good Nazi. > >>Only a stupid >>idiot lays down in front of a train. > > Why not find out what happened before calling someone else an >idiot. It doesn't make *you* look very bright. > > I think it is hilarious that the >>engineers are suing the dweeb that thought he could stop a train. > > I think it is pitiful you are so bloodthirsty and uninformed. >And I think ignorance and bloody-mindedness is a bad combination, >a dangerous combination, and it is, I submit, the combination >which produces "facists" and many of the other depressing things >we like to throw at each other as labels. Instead of carping >about my nastiness, you should take a long, hard look in the >mirror and think about your value system. Do you feel, secretly >or not so secretly, "Good! I'm glad he lost his legs!". Do you >dismiss the claims of Contra atrocities out of hand as not being >relevant to a world of Realpolitik and Soviet containment? Then >you are on your way to being a "facist" whether you like the >label or not. Anyone who knows me, or who has been reading my articles for several years, knows that these positions are not mine, this style is not mine, and these articles are not mine. Far be it from me to deride someone who mocks the idiocy of someone laying in front of a moving train by calling him bloodthirsty or stupid or "facist" or a Nazi. And fur
gsmith@BOSCO.BERKELEY.EDU (01/22/88)
In article <2445@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> lazarus@athena.mit.edu (Michael Friedman) writes: >In article <8801210557.AA01465@oreo> oreo!gsmith (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >>And I think ignorance and bloody-mindedness is a bad combination, >>a dangerous combination, and it is, I submit, the combination >>which produces "facists" and many of the other depressing things >>we like to throw at each other as labels. >When I decided to respond to this posting I first tried to define >'Fascist'. The sad thing was that I couldn't. Why is it that this doesn't surprise me? >I checked the dictionary. >Fascism - A centralized, autocratic, national regime with severely >nationalistic policies, excercising regimentation of industry, >commerce, and finance, and forcible suppression of opposition. >I bet that most of you were wrong. I bet that you forgot the word "fascist" was not introduced by me. The word I used was "Paraguay". Somehow this got the point got across. While no doubt few netters are going to support the whole fascist program, a certain fondness for severe nationalism and forcible supression of opposition seems to be not uncommon. Certainly running someone over with a train is more forceful (but we hope, less deliberate) than feeding them castor oil like Mussolini did at first. And some seem to be applauding. Do I sound paranoid? The history of this country and of this controversy alike tend to produce a little paranoia at times. ucbvax!garnet!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/Brahmsgangster/Berkeley CA 94720 "There are no differences but differences of degree between degrees of difference and no difference"
lazarus@athena.mit.edu (Michael Friedman) (01/23/88)
In article <6385@oberon.USC.EDU> gazit@ganelon.usc.edu (Hillel) writes: >In article <2445@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> lazarus@athena.mit.edu (Michael Friedman) writes: >>I checked the dictionary. >>Fascism - A centralized, autocratic, national regime with severely >>nationalistic policies, excercising regimentation of industry, >>commerce, and finance, and forcible suppression of opposition. >By your definition the USSR is a fascist country. Yup. Interesting, eh? Remember, Nazism stands for "National SOCIALISM". I wonder what the Soviet apologists on the net think of that? >I suggest you to read some history of Italy in the thirties. It will help >you to understand the subject. Why don't you tell me what is wrong with the DICTIONARY's definition? I really want to know. These are the official opinions Mike Friedman of my organization. So, TOUGH!!
bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) (01/23/88)
Michael Friedman writes... >Yup. Interesting, eh? Remember, Nazism stands for "National >SOCIALISM". I wonder what the Soviet apologists on the net think of >that? Altho not a Soviet apologist (can you name any on the net Michael? or is this just your chance to dabble in some McCarthyism?) I think you are playing puerile word games. Gee, and the "N" in NRA stands for "National", just like in National Socialism! And lord only knows who really is behind "The Nation", or where SOCIAL diseases come from... Hitler had no interest in Socialism in any accepted sense of the word, the concurrence of those letters is meaningless as an extrapolation (altho why he chose it is certainly interesting, and then proceeded to blame a lot of Germany's ills on the Socialists, and exterminate them.) >Why don't you tell me what is wrong with the DICTIONARY's definition? >I really want to know. It's shallow and leaves too much to interpretation to begin to shed any light on a rather complicated subject in one sentence, but I guess if the shoe fits... Socialism implies an economic system which I don't believe is a major point of comparison between the two nations. There are certainly similarities between the totalitarianism of Nazi Germany and the totalitarianism that exists in the Soviet Union, certainly not least among them the question of why populations tolerate and even encourage such situations. However, there are also salient differences which are critical to explore (for example, the longevity of only one of the systems.) I fear, however, that the appeal to emotion which is so attractive to some in claiming equivalence of Nazi Germany and the USSR will generally overcome any good sense. "Nazi" has become such a good "poo-poo doo-doo" word (meaning, content free aspersion, cathartic obscenity etc.) -Barry Shein, Boston University
jbrown@jplpub1.jpl.nasa.gov (Jordan Brown) (01/23/88)
In article <8801200541.AA19851@garnet.berkeley.edu> oreo!gsmith@violet.berkeley.edu (Gene Ward Smith) writes: >In article <868@xn.LL.MIT.EDU> olsen@ll-xn.UUCP (Jim Olsen) writes: >>I submit that there is no such obligation. If I voluntarily lie down on a >>railroad track, and have a witness call the railroad and tell them where I >>am and demand that trains be stopped there, is the railroad obliged to take >>any notice? It would be nice if they slowed down, but they are within their >>rights to continue at full speed and expect me to fulfil my duty to clear >>the track. > > It is becoming increasingly clear that most likely the reason >Willson lost his legs is that too many people believe in this >institutional right to mayhem. I don't like rush hour traffic or smog. I think cars should be abolished. I'm going to go run in and out of freeway traffic in order to get people to stop driving. I don't like the way that airliners are taking over my skies. I'm going to go run out onto the runway at LAX to stop them. These attitudes, while less "trendy" than anti-militarianism, are still valid. (It wouldn't be hard to make a good case that pollution is a worse danger than nuclear war...) The methods proposed to deal with the situation are not, however, bright. Sounds to me like the Navy (or whoever) was pretty reasonable. They effectively said "We're going on with our business. Get out of the way." I don't know the geography of the situation, but 16mph sounds like a very slow train, allowing plenty of time for people to get out of the way. You certainly can't claim that the train jumped out from behind a tree and hit him. Regardless of the right or wrong of your movement, if you think that a train 40 feet away moving at 16 mph is going to stop before it gets to you, you're stupid. If you know it can't and you don't get out of the way, you're suicidal. Playing chicken is stupid. Playing chicken when you are sure to lose is suicidal. Stupidity used to be a capital offense. Unfortunately it isn't any more, and so the average stupidity level in the country is rising.
ethan@ut-emx.UUCP (Ethan Tecumseh Vishniac) (01/26/88)
In article <6385@oberon.USC.EDU>, gazit@ganelon.usc.edu (Salit) writes: > In article <2445@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> lazarus@athena.mit.edu (Michael Friedman) writes: > > > >Fascism - A centralized, autocratic, national regime with severely > >nationalistic policies, excercising regimentation of industry, > >commerce, and finance, and forcible suppression of opposition. > > By your definition the USSR is a fascist country. Unfortunately, it would be difficult to distinguish the difference between a fascist state and the USSR in operational terms. If I am allowed to appeal to their official ideology then it becomes trivial to make that distinction. "Totalitarian" used to be a good general term before the Reaganites tried to exempt rightwing governments from that label. Personally, when I say fascist I mean what everyone else means ... someone who disagrees with me in public. -- I'm not afraid of dying Ethan Vishniac, Dept of Astronomy I just don't want to be {charm,ut-sally,ut-ngp,noao}!utastro!ethan there when it happens. (arpanet) ethan@astro.AS.UTEXAS.EDU - Woody Allen (bitnet) ethan%astro.as.utexas.edu@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU