willis@violet.berkeley.edu (Willis Johnson) (10/22/87)
You guessed it. I lost mine and somebody used it. I won't tell you where they found the PIN! :-) The guy used it four times to withdraw a total of $520 from my account. The ATMs took a total of 18 clear photos of him. They looked like offprints from a video tape. We identified him from the pictures and the Berkeley Police inform me that those pictures are admissible evidence in California. The bank (Wells Fargo) told me that nearly all of their ATMs photo- graph all transactions. Willis Johnson willis@violet.BERKELEY.EDU ...ucbvax!violet!willis
mjr@osiris.UUCP (Marcus J. Ranum) (10/25/87)
In article <5560@jade.BERKELEY.EDU>, willis@violet.berkeley.edu (Willis Johnson) writes: > You guessed it. I lost mine and somebody used it. I won't tell > you where they found the PIN! :-) The guy used it four times to > withdraw a total of $520 from my account. The ATMs took a total > of 18 clear photos of him. [...] What is *REALLY* incredible is that the fellow was so stupid as to withdraw money using a stolen card and allow his face to be videotaped. Of course, your typical crook is not too bright (or he'd be a politician and rip off more money, legally). Since the vid-cameras the ATMs have are pretty conspicuous, and they aren't crew served, I don't see what they can do if someone walks up wearing a big hat, stocking mask, or motorcycle helmet, and withdraws money. In fact, I usually don't bother to take my full-face (smoked visor) helmet off when I withdraw money, simply because I resent being on camera when there are no signs to notify me that I am being recorded. Banks are quite straightforward about this, and I appreciate it. --mjr(); -- If they think you're crude, go technical; if they think you're technical, go crude. I'm a very technical boy. So I get as crude as possible. These days, though, you have to be pretty technical before you can even aspire to crudeness... -Johnny Mnemonic
ugfailau@sunybcs.UUCP (11/02/87)
In article <5560@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> willis@violet.berkeley.edu (Willis Johnson) writes: >You guessed it. I lost mine and somebody used it. I won't tell >you where they found the PIN! :-) The guy used it four times to >withdraw a total of $520 from my account. The ATMs took a total >of 18 clear photos of him. They looked like offprints from a video >tape. We identified him from the pictures and the Berkeley Police >inform me that those pictures are admissible evidence in California. I have always known what's behind those plastic "windows" at every ATM. It's alota fun poking faces at them. If the Machine doesn't somethime I'd taped a piece of flyer on them just to piss someone off. I just don't get it when someone is smart enough to use other people's bank card and not smart enough to cover the camera before screwing around with the machine. Fai Lau SUNY at Buffalo (The Arctic Wonderland) UUCP: ..{mit-ems|watmath|rocksanne}!sunybcs!ugfailau BI: ugfailau@sunybcs
marcos@caus-dp.UUCP (11/18/87)
In article <6252@sunybcs.UUCP>, ugfailau@sunybcs.uucp (Fai Lau) writes: > In article <5560@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> willis@violet.berkeley.edu (Willis Johnson) writes: > >You guessed it. I lost mine and somebody used it. I won't tell > >you where they found the PIN! :-) The guy used it four times to > >withdraw a total of $520 from my account. The ATMs took a total > >of 18 clear photos of him. They looked like offprints from a video > >tape. We identified him from the pictures and the Berkeley Police > >inform me that those pictures are admissible evidence in California. > > I have always known what's behind those plastic "windows" > at every ATM. It's alota fun poking faces at them. If the Machine > doesn't somethime I'd taped a piece of flyer on them just to piss > someone off. I just don't get it when someone is smart enough > to use other people's bank card and not smart enough to > cover the camera before screwing around with the machine. > My sister goes to UCB and had an ATM card for Wells Fargo Bank. She also lives in the dorms there and someone down the hall managed to lift her card from her room in one of those poddy panics that students high on caffeen get every 15 minutes or so. Anyway, they managed to get a few hundred dollars from her account (How they figured out the PIN I'll never know) and they almost got away with it. Apparently Wells Farge doesn't take pictures unless there is a flag on your card account. She went down to the Bank two days later when she finally figured out it wasn't in the laundry or under the chemistry book and they informed her that it had been used in the last few days. After that they put the mark on her account and they caught the guy as he drained the last of her savings out of her account... The big problem is that even though they did catch the thief and convict him, my sister only got back the money that she had lost after they had turned on the cameras. She didn't get any of the other money back even though the guy admitted to the crime... Now I ask you, is this fair? I suppose its the law, but then... Marcos R. Della -- ...!lll-crg -> !csustan -\ | Whatever I said doesn't ...!sdsu ----->->!polyslo!caus-dp!marcos | mean diddly as I forgot ...!ihnp4 -> !csun ----/ | it even before finishing ...!dmsd ---/ | typing it all out!!!
johnm@auscso.UUCP (John B. Meaders) (11/30/87)
In article <284@caus-dp.UUCP> marcos@caus-dp.UUCP (Marcos R. Della) writes: >The big problem is that even though they did catch the thief and convict >him, my sister only got back the money that she had lost after they >had turned on the cameras. She didn't get any of the other money back >even though the guy admitted to the crime... > >Now I ask you, is this fair? I suppose its the law, but then... If you read the card agreements on Debit cards you will notice that the Bank is not liable unless you notify them of the theft. This also includes credit cards. Once your sister alerted the bank she was covered. This protects the bank as well as the card holder. Suppose the spouse of a card holder neglected to tell the named holder that they were going to use the card and the named holder then discovered the card missing, and reported it stolen... well you can guess the kind of problems that could cause. As far as it being fair... Life isn't fair... But as long as you report the theft as soon as you discover it missing, you are covered... In her case, I presume she was the only holder, therefore she wouldn't have harmed anything by reporting it stolen as soon as she couldn't find it... These cards are great, but you do need to be careful with them. -- John B. Meaders, Jr. 1114 Camino La Costa #3083, Austin, TX 78752 ATT: Voice: +1 (512) 451-5038 Data: +1 (512) 371-0550 UUCP: ...!ut-ngp!auscso!jclyde!john \johnm
jmm@thoth8.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU (12/02/87)
For credit cards, you are only responsible for the first $50 that someone who steals your card charges. From my "Visa(r) account agreement:" If you discover or suspect that the Card or any unused checks are lost or stolen, or that there may be an unauthorized transaction on your account, you will notify us promptly by telephoning x. You will phone, even though you may notify us in writing, so we can act fast [sic - it bothers me that the lawyers who write this can't speak English] to limit losses and liability. Your liability for unauthorized use occurring before you notify us is limited to $50. I was under the impression that this was required by law, and that this law also applies to ATM cards. James Moore ..!ucbvax!leggatt!jmm
booth@antique.UUCP (12/02/87)
From jmm@thoth8.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU (James Moore):
For credit cards, you are only responsible for the first $50
that someone who steals your card charges. . . . .
I was under the impression that this was required by law, and
that this law also applies to ATM cards.
Yes, this is required by law; no, the law does not apply to ATM cards.
The law provides the consumer much better protection with credit cards
than with ATM cards. Take a look at the agreement you got with your
ATM card.
David Booth
Arpanet: booth@vax135.att.com
UUCP: {harvard, seismo, ucbvax}!vax135!boothdclaar@hpcupt1.HP.COM (Doug Claar) (12/03/87)
No, ATM cards are not credit cards, so the credit card laws don't
apply. Any stop-loss is whatever is in your contract!
Doug Claar
HP Information Technology Group
UUCP: { ihnp4 | mcvax!decvax }!hplabs!hpda!dclaar -or- ucbvax!hpda!dclaar
ARPA: hpda!dclaar@hplabs.HP.COMjim@xanth.UUCP (12/05/87)
In article <6140@jade.BERKELEY.EDU> jmm@thoth8.berkeley.edu.BERKELEY.EDU () writes: >For credit cards, you are only responsible for the first $50 that someone >who steals your card charges. From my "Visa(r) account agreement:" > > If you discover or suspect that the Card or any unused checks are lost >or stolen, ...... > ...... Your liability for >unauthorized use occurring before you notify us is limited to $50. > >I was under the impression that this was required by law, and that >this law also applies to ATM cards. > >James Moore ...!ucbvax!leggatt!jmm No! This is *not* the case! In many situations, ATM cards are considered (and implemented as) debit cards, not credit cards, and as such they are *not* necessarily protected by the fifty dollar limit of liability. Some states have addressed this problem, and implemented statutes to protect the ATM card holder against unauthorized use of his|her account. Many banks have voluntarily adopted policies which protect their customers. The ATM user is hereby warned to read the fine print on the agreement -- my bank *does* protect me with the fifty dollar limit *if* I am prompt in reporting the loss of the card, but there is no guarantee that all banks would do so. -- Jim Duncan, Computer Science Dept, Old Dominion Univ, Norfolk VA 23529-0162 (804)440-3915 INET: jim@xanth.cs.odu.edu UUCP: ...!sun!xanth!jim ---------- Time flies like the wind, but fruit flies like bananas. ---------