bruce@idsssd.UUCP (Bruce T. Harvey) (05/09/91)
First of all, thanks to all who replied to my request for info ... Both
Vermont Views and C-Scape appear to be "professional" packages, useable by
professionals and "interested amateurs" alike.
I'm going to let the posters present their opinions, below, but I do have a
couple of things to point out that may be of interest to folks:
1. C-Scape's form generator has a "preview" mode, wherein you can "test"
your form before exporting code for use in your program ... Vermont
Views doesn't.
2. C-Scape is based on terminfo; Vermont Views is based
on its own "extended" termcap. If you use different display equipment
on different systems and don't want to fiddle too much with terminal
descriptions on various systems, pick C-Scape. If you want to be able
to use the same display equipment on different systems
_and_have_it_look_the_same_, pick Vermont Views.
3. C-Scape turned out (for us) to be more expensive for the particular
hardware we are/will_be using. $$ may vary according to use.
4. Vermont Views will manipulate a "color terminal" (one with specific
commands to change foreground, background, etc colors ... not just
"... make the bold-reverse show up as green ..." like so many
PC emulators do) --- and this is important --- on a
NON-COLOR-SUPPORTING-SYSTEM !!! We're going to use it for shows,
and such.
5. We picked Vermont Views ... termcap consistency from system to system
as well as price entered into the consideration. From what I can see,
both can do the job, whatever it is. To some degree, it depends on
what you want to do and how you want to do it. If you are concerned
that your product "looks" the same on various systems (using the same
or 'similar' ... vt100/220/320/etc. emulators or such), Vermont Views
is the better choice.
Anyway, thanks ... and on with the opinions ...
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From: aplcen!pldote.intel.com!dregis (~Regis)
Subject: Vermont Views, et al
To: bruce%idsssd.UUCP@intelhf.intel.com
Hello Bruce,
I recently went through an evaluation process to choose a
user-interface package. We required that the package be portable and
that source code was available.
Vermont Views became the choice without too much hesitation. Their
customer service is excellent and their manuals are the best I've
seen.
I have discovered only a few very minor bugs which they acknowledged.
They were also helpful in providing work- arounds (except in one case,
but then I was was trying to do something they hadn't intended their
library to do).
We recently ordered the full source, additional licenses, Unix dev
license (with source) and have fully committed our future products to
it (not Intel in general, although other groups have chosen VV as well).
Although their software seems to be designed primarily for data-entry,
their library is flexible enough to do just about anything ... as a
result, our product exceeded all expectations as far as ease-of-use and
functionality.
The product has been announced and will be available from the Intel
literature department -- this is a free product.
It's intended function may be of no use to you, but it will show you
what VV is really capable of with a little imagination. If you are
interested, feel free to give me a call,
Dave Regis (916)-351-6270 (Pacific Daylight Time!)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Regis (MS:FM1-87) dregis@pldote.intel.com
1900 Prairie City Rd. __|__ Intel Corporation
Folsom, CA 95630 -------______O______------- PLFG Software Tools
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From: aplcen!ee.rochester.edu!moscom!lb (Larry Beck)
To: wb3ffv!idsssd!bruce
Subject: C-scape, etc.
Cc: moscom!lb@ee.rochester.edu
Hi there!
Someone noticed your posting and passed it on to me. I work for a company
called Moscom in E. Rochester, NY and we develop Telephone Management SW
products (Call Accounting, etc.) for UNIX and DOS systems. I'm the UI designer
for the UNIX product group. We just recently implemented a new user interface
using C-scape, and our DOS group is using Vermont Views, so I'm slightly
familiar with that, also.
My group chose C-scape over Vermont Views primarily because C-scape uses
standard terminfo files, while Vermont Views doesn't. Apparently (this is
second hand, though) Vermont Views supports some popular terminal types, and
provides information that allows the programmers to support others.
Aside from this, C-scape and Vermont Views are essentially very similar. Both
provide about the same level of functionality, and both have WYSIWYG designer
packages that allow you to create your UI and generate the code when you're
done.
C-scape on UNIX resembles the DOS demo, except that certain features are not
supported by Curses, so the UNIX version does not support them. The UNIX
version does not support exploding windows and does not have a mouse interface.
Our application uses C-scape to create a pull-down menu system, with a cross-
referenced help function. This was very easy to create with the designer,
and it was easy to customize the operation of the menu (i.e. command
availability, etc.). C-scape has an annoying habit of refreshing the screen
several times when moving from menu to menu (it's not visually upsetting, but
it slows thing down). I was forced at gunpoint by my manager to modifiy
the C-scape source to speed this up, which was very easy. The C-scape source
is well designed and reasonably commented. The manuals are very helpful, and
the software is relatively bug-free.
One major problem we had (this was documented in the installation guide) was
that the compiler on our AT&T 6386 choked on one file when building the
C-scape library. Hopefully your company isn't dumb enough to buy AT&T
development tools.
Overall, C-scape has worked well for us and I'd recommend it. If you have
any questions, my number is 716-385-6440 and email address is lb@moscom.com
Good luck,
Larry Beck
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From: aplcen!intek.com!mark (Mark McWiggins)
To: idsssd!bruce@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Looking for C-Scape vs. Vermont Views Comparison
I don't know about Vermont Views, but its predecessor, Windows for Data,
was pretty clunky under Unix. You might want to look at it before you
buy it. I haven't tried C-Scape.
Why not a GUI-y thing? The world is certainly going that way.
---
Mark McWiggins Integration Technologies, Inc. (Intek)
+1 206 455 9935 DISCLAIMER: I could be wrong ...
1400 112th Ave SE #202 Bellevue WA 98004
mark@intek.com Ask me about C++!
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[ Note: ... our customers aren't up for GUI yet, and VV ]
[ appears to have fixed a lot that was wrong with ]
[ Windows for Data ... probably why they changed ]
[ the name. ... bruce@idsssd.UUCP ]
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To: idsssd!bruce@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Looking for C-Scape vs. Vermont Views Comparison
From: aplcen!uunet.UU.NET!brian%edat
You might also try JYACC. Does great menus, can automatically
support a mouse, and they GUI versions that you create just by
recompiling the character-based version script.
I have no affiliation with JYACC.
JYACC 800-458-3313
or NY 212-267-7722, NY NY
Brian Douglass Voice: 702-361-1510 X311
Electronic Data Technologies FAX #: 702-361-2545
1085 Palms Airport Drive brian@edat.uucp
Las Vegas, NV 89119-3715
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From: aplcen!uunet.UU.NET!rachel!stupak (Michael Stupak )
Subject: C C-Scape...
To: idsssd!bruce@uunet.UU.NET
In response to your news posting:
There is a company called
Interactive Technology, INC.
460 Park Plaza West
10700 SW Beaverton-Hillsdale Hwy
Beaverton, OR 97005
(503)644-0111
TLX - 703920
that has a product similar to what you are looking for. I have
very little personal knowledge of the product (I applied for a
job there once.) Hope it helps.
Mike Stupak
--
/\__\ /__\ /\_\ /\_\ /__\ /\____\ /\____\ Mike Stupak
/ / \|/ / / / / / / |/ / / / __/ / / __/ __ stupak@wheaton.uucp
/ / __ / / / / / / _ / / / __/ /\/__ / /\_\ (503) 260-5882
\/__/ /__/ \/_/ \/__/ |__\ \/____/ \/____/ \/_/
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From: "Steve Oster " <aplcen!pucc.PRINCETON.EDU!U09762%UICVM>
To: idsssd!bruce@uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: Looking for C-Scape vs. Vermont Views Comparison
We use C-scape where I work. I haven't done a lot of work with
it, but I can give you a little insight. We use it on DOS PS/2s
running at 16Mhz, and its pretty robust. There is quite
a learning curve, however. CS is"OOP-inspired" and has a
huge library of functions. You can do a lot with it, but its takes
a while to fully understand it. From their documentation it seems
to be very portable. The weak link will probably be the rest of
your C code.
Their upgrades are pretty cheap, you can get the source (I think
for free), and they have a screen designer that nice. You draw
a screen with your mouse, and it generates the C code.
CS is best used for larger programs. In DOS, the smallest
program we ever ended up with was 99kb is size -- and this
did almost nothing. However, this is overhead and doesn't
increase much as your program grows in size. Their screen
designer has all the routines in it, and is only 370kb in size.
In short, its a good product. Our department chose it over
Vermont Views (I don't know why, thats before my time) and
has been pleased with it. For _little_ stuff, though, I'd go with
curses.
E-mail me if you have any other Q's.
Good Luck!
Stever
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