c60a-4fl@widow.berkeley.edu (Antony A. Courtney) (01/07/89)
in (Article 6832 of misc.forsale) (mms%sordid@Sun.COM (Michael Silverstein)) writes: >In article <7745@lanl.gov> jxdl@lanl.gov (Jerry DeLapp) writes: >>*> >>*> Dumping is not a natural market force! It is a concerted and >>*> focused effort involving sale of a commodity at lower than true >>*> value for the specific purpose of eliminating competitors from the >>*> market. In the case of RAM, there was specific support by the >>*> Japanese government for the policy of dumping. At one point, RAMs >>*> from Japan were selling for much less in the US than they were in >>*> Japan! >>*> >>*> It was these UNFAIR TRADE PRACTICES that led to the current laws. >>*> -- > >So, the free market is fine until some one, other than ourselves, is >the winner. At that point, selling high quality merchandise at low >prices becomes "dumping". > >The price of chips in Japan is irrelevant. A manufacturer has the >right to sell a product for whatever price he wishes, in any location >he chooses. > >The true cost of all this catering to special interests is borne by >the rest of us, who now pay $10 for a three dollar DRAM, or $14,000 >for an "economy" car. > >Views expressed are my own. > >*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* >| /\/\ike Silverstein | This can't be deja vous. Things are more like | >| sun!mms -or- mms@sun.com | they are now, than they've ever been before! | >*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*> 'Scuse me for saying so, but I think you are out of your mind. The Japanese Government was subsidizing Japanese companies to sell DRAMs way below cost. As such, there was no possible way that US Companies could stay in competition with this. The end result: US Companies stopped making DRAMs. Fortunately, the US Government caught the problem in time. It is my belief that, once all US competition had been destroyed, the Japanese would have a fierce grasp on the computer market as a whole. They could just raise DRAM prices to...mmm...say... $20 or so for US Computer Companies doing development like Sun, and then they could sell their computers for much cheaper because they would obviously have DRAMs at their cost. Also, given the fact that EVERY computer uses DRAMs, including DoD computers, etc... being at the total mercy of another country is far far too dangerous. Now I've never been one to support Ronald Reagan, (believe me!!!!), but I do agree with him on this policy. And I think if we can just stick through this, we'll be stronger for it...I certainly can barely afford a computer, and unfortunately, the DRAM price increase ends up hurting me and others like me. But I honestly believe the chrisis is almost over. In my opinion, Dumping is most definitely NOT a 'natural' market force. It is a slimey way to put the little guy out of business because some fat company can afford to subsidize the loss for long enough to destroy competition. And then when the competition is gone the market is at their mercy. And having a government backing such slimey practices makes it even tougher for the little guy. Fortunately the US acted on this in a respectable, moral way. Antony A. Courtney c60a-4fl@widow.berkeley.edu Pete Shipley: email: shipley@widow.berkeley.edu Flames: cimarron@postgres.berkeley.edu uunet!lurnix!shipley or ucbvax!shipley or pyramid!hippo!{ root peter } Spelling corections: /dev/null Quote: "Anger is an energy"
mms%sordid@Sun.COM (Michael Silverstein) (01/08/89)
In article <18814@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60a-4fl@widow.berkeley.edu (Antony A. Courtney) writes: >*> 'Scuse me for saying so, but I think you are out of your mind. >*> >*> The Japanese Government was subsidizing Japanese companies to sell DRAMs way >*> below cost. As such, there was no possible way that US Companies could stay >*> in competition with this. The end result: US Companies stopped making >*> DRAMs. Possibly encouraging them. There's no evidence that the Japanese gov't was actually subsididzing. >*> They could just raise DRAM >*> prices to...mmm...say... $20 or so for US Computer Companies doing development >*> like Sun, and then they could sell their computers for much cheaper because >*> they would obviously have DRAMs at their cost. After US companies quit making drams, prices continued to FALL. The Japanese manufacturers were competing furiously against EACH OTHER. There's no reason to think this wouldn't have continued if we hadn't "fixed" the problem. As I said previously, we are now paying $10 for three dollar chips so that as consumers we can SUBSIDIZE American industry back into the dram business. But the worst of many bad effects this policy has is the message it sends to the Japanese: "Don't take all this free market stuff too seriously. Cut back production, raise prices, and we can all make more money, (and keep the peace)". Compare the price of a basic, 4 passenger Japanese economy car to what it was before the "voluntary" quotas, and you'll see who is really paying the bill for this policy. Views expressed are my own. *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=* | /\/\ike Silverstein | This can't be deja vous. Things are more like | | sun!mms -or- mms@sun.com | they are now, than they've ever been before! | *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-*-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
friedl@vsi.COM (Stephen J. Friedl) (01/08/89)
In article <18814@agate.BERKELEY.EDU>, c60a-4fl@widow.berkeley.edu (Antony A. Courtney) writes: > The Japanese Government was subsidizing Japanese companies to sell DRAMs way > below cost. Why should we reject a gift from the Japanese taxpayer? Steve -- Stephen J. Friedl 3B2-kind-of-guy friedl@vsi.com V-Systems, Inc. I speak for me only attmail!vsi!friedl Santa Ana, CA USA +1 714 545 6442 {backbones}!vsi!friedl -------Nancy Reagan on Usenix in San Diego: "Just say *go*"-------
johnl@ima.ima.isc.com (John R. Levine) (01/08/89)
In article <18814@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60a-4fl@widow.berkeley.edu (Antony A. Courtney) writes: >'Scuse me for saying so, but I think you are out of your mind. >... >Fortunately, the US Government caught the problem in time. ... >Fortunately the US acted on this in a respectable, moral way. Oh, give me a break. I would have considerably more sympathy for the government's DRAM action were it applied in an even partially rational way. They took action specifically against DRAMs. Did they do anything about boards with RAM chips on them? Nope, so that rational manufacturers had their boards stuffed overseas thus exporting American jobs. Ensuring a domestic supplier of RAM chips is a reasonable security goal, but I can think of a lot more effective ways than jacking up chip prices from $2 to $10, thus sending billions of American dollars to the Japanese chip makers who dominate the market. For example, the gov't could have specified domestic chips in government computers. It seems to me that the Japanese were doing us a great favor by shipping us all those cheap chips to subsidize our large and growing computer industry. I also note that I'm now seeing European chips here (Siemens, specifically.) Should we slap tarriffs on them, too? -- John R. Levine, Segue Software, POB 349, Cambridge MA 02238, +1 617 492 3869 { bbn | spdcc | decvax | harvard | yale }!ima!johnl, Levine@YALE.something You're never too old to have a happy childhood.
john@stiatl.UUCP (John DeArmond) (01/08/89)
>In article <18814@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60a-4fl@widow.berkeley.edu (Antony A. Courtney) writes: > > 'Scuse me for saying so, but I think you are out of your mind. > > The Japanese Government was subsidizing Japanese companies to sell DRAMs way > below cost. As such, there was no possible way that US Companies could stay > in competition with this. The end result: US Companies stopped making > DRAMs. > You don't REALLY believe this do you? I noticed in "EE weekly" a few days ago that the world market price of 256k DRAM is about 3 bux a chip. Do you s'pose the Japaneese government is subsidizing the whole damn world? Or do you maybe think that 3 bux represents the real value of a DRAM chip manufactured with modern fab lines and techniques? As to subsidies, one could also note that the US government subsidizes almost ALL US industry. Don't believe me? Well consider for a moment Investment Tax Credits, Capital Gains taxes, interest deduction, depriciation, state & local tax deduction, expense deductions including labor costs. Some of these are now gone but ALL were in effect when the american semi industry started it's whining. Personally, my response to this is to pledge never but never buy american-made memory again. More of us should do the same. john -- John De Armond, WD4OQC | "I can't drive 85!" Sales Technologies, Inc. Atlanta, GA | Sammy Hagar driving ...!gatech!stiatl!john | thru Atlanta!
ignac@electro.UUCP (Ignac Kolenko) (01/09/89)
In article <84369@sun.uucp> mms@sun.UUCP (Michael Silverstein) writes: >As I said previously, we are now paying $10 for three dollar chips >so that as consumers we can SUBSIDIZE American industry back into ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >the dram business. But the worst of many bad effects this policy has >is the message it sends to the Japanese: "Don't take all this free >market stuff too seriously. ... >Compare the price of a basic, 4 passenger Japanese economy car to >what it was before the "voluntary" quotas, and you'll see who is >really paying the bill for this policy. i'm in the mood to be flamed! and through free trade, Canada is supposed to become as "efficient" and as "competetive" as the US is in the world market. seems like american efficiency has its costs. (note: there are no smileys in the above opinion!) -- Ignac A. Kolenko watmath!watcgl!electro!ignac "Sex farm woman, don't you see my silo risin' high? Working on a sex farm, hosing down your barn door, bothering your livestock, they know what I need!" from Sex Farm by Spinal Tap
griff@intelob.intel.com (Richard Griffith) (01/10/89)
In article <18814@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> c60a-4fl@widow.berkeley.edu (Antony A. Courtney) writes: >in (Article 6832 of misc.forsale) (mms%sordid@Sun.COM (Michael Silverstein)) >writes: >>In article <7745@lanl.gov> jxdl@lanl.gov (Jerry DeLapp) writes: >>>*> >>>*> Dumping is not a natural market force! It is a concerted and >>>*> focused effort involving sale of a commodity at lower than true >>>*> value for the specific purpose of eliminating competitors from the >>>*> market. In the case of RAM, there was specific support by the gee - sounds like a wholesaler... kinda :-) >> >>So, the free market is fine until some one, other than ourselves, is >>the winner. At that point, selling high quality merchandise at low yeah, nobody likes "losing" more than I do! :-) :-) [ shortened up ] > >'Scuse me for saying so, but I think you are out of your mind. > >The Japanese Government was subsidizing Japanese companies to sell DRAMs way >below cost. As such, there was no possible way that US Companies could stay Sounds like a few American farmers I know - let's see, Uncle Sam pays farmer Brown if he doesn't raise too many pigs. Ok - HEY! Unca' Sam - I'm not raising pigs either! Pay me! [ more shortened ...] But seriously folks... No, the Japanese government should not have subsidized that market, and I think that the American government should a) shut off all hi-tech trade or b) force the Japanese government to accept free trade of all agricultural goods. At $10/orange, we could HALF their price and wipe out all Japanese farmers within the month. - griff ************************************************************************** * Richard E. Griffith * "Someday soon we'll stop to ponder - * * "griff" * What on Earth's this spell we're under? * * BiiN, Hillsboro Ore. * We made the grade, but still we wonder - * * (When are we getting * Who the Hell we are?" * * Our own Usenet node?) * - Styx "Grand Illusion" * **************************************************************************
tainter@ihlpb.ATT.COM (Tainter) (01/11/89)
In article <2542@stiatl.UUCP> john@stiatl.UUCP (John DeArmond) writes: >You don't REALLY believe this do you? I noticed in "EE weekly" a few >days ago that the world market price of 256k DRAM is about 3 bux a chip. >Do you s'pose the Japaneese government is subsidizing the whole damn >world? Or do you maybe think that 3 bux represents the real value of >a DRAM chip manufactured with modern fab lines and techniques? I believe they go for 3 american bucks a pop world wide. When they were selling here for 1.55 they were getting dumped. The current prices are the result of an artificial shortage and price jacking. This may be retaliation for the imposed sanctions, it might also just be the next phase in the Japanese profit taking on DRAM. I am inclined to believe the latter. >As to subsidies, one could also note that the US government subsidizes >almost ALL US industry. Don't believe me? Well consider for a The Japanese gov't dosen't have to subsidize companies. All industry of any significance in Japan is directly or indirectly owned by the seven families and subsidizes new ventures. >John De Armond, WD4OQC ^^^^^^ You do quality control for spray lubricant?