rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) (09/29/84)
No, you're not Humpty Dumpty, so a word doesn't mean exactly what you choose it to mean. Backing up a bit in the discussion of classic albums: > >> Either: 1) I am too old for this net; 2) Persons posting > >> "classic albums" are being deliberately obscure and > >> esoteric; or 3) The word "classic" is being seriously > >> misused. [W. Christensen] Have to agree if what some people are calling "classics" are unknown to others who know the genre. But then, ostensibly from someone who agrees with Christensen: > > I believe the word classic as used here is up to the individual, > > and rightly so. [Gregory Strockbine] This is bound to confuse things; see my further comments below. > First off, for every person who utters what Christensen said, there > is a person ten or twenty or thirty years older saying the same thing > about Christensen's (or whomever's) choice of albums... But Christensen was saying he was too old?!? > ... Thirdly, just because > an album is esoteric or obscure (i.e., *you* never heard of it: that's > all the words imply) doesn't make it any less of a candidate for > "classic" status. No, "esoteric" and "obscure" are not defined by your own perceptions alone. They reflect a general sense of something not recognized by the masses (even if "masses" is limited to a particular peer group--say, those who know R&R or R&B). After reading this set of interchanges, I finally wandered down the hall to find a dictionary--was the definition of "classic" completely turned around in my head? Seems not. Among the phrases suggested by various definitions in a couple of dictionaries, I found the following which seem to capture the sense of "classic": serving as a standard, model, or guide basic fundamental of enduring interest or quality renowned traditional typical definitive Moreover, I suspect that the person who originally asked about "classic" albums had these traits in mind, and I've seen a number of postings where I would agree with perhaps 80%+ of the albums listed. The frequent repetitions out of the posted lists are the classics. The leftovers may be classics of lesser stature or they may just be personal favorites--but definitely "personal favorites" != "classics" unless you're only interested in playing dumb about meanings of words. -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Relax...don't worry...have a homebrew.
rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen) (10/03/84)
>>> Either: 1) I am too old for this net; 2) Persons posting >>> "classic albums" are being deliberately obscure and >>> esoteric; or 3) The word "classic" is being seriously >>> misused. [W. Christensen] > Have to agree if what some people are calling "classics" are unknown to > others who know the genre. [Dick Dunn] Perhaps because they don't "know the genre" as well as they might think, e.g., their knowledge ends somewhere between 1969 and 1972 (or pick your own set of boundary years). >> First off, for every person who utters what Christensen said, there >> is a person ten or twenty or thirty years older saying the same thing >> about Christensen's (or whomever's) choice of albums... [Rich Rosen] > But Christensen was saying he was too old?!? [Dick Dunn] He said EITHER he is too old or the term "classic" is being misused. If indeed he's "too old" (i.e., musical tastes stuck at a certain point in time--- age has nothing to do with it), then the discussion need go no further. There's nothing wrong with having one's musical tastes stuck at a certain point in time, but it sort of disqualifies one from making overall value judgments on what is truly classic. >> ... Thirdly, just because >> an album is esoteric or obscure (i.e., *you* never heard of it: that's >> all the words imply) doesn't make it any less of a candidate for >> "classic" status. > No, "esoteric" and "obscure" are not defined by your own perceptions alone. > They reflect a general sense of something not recognized by the masses Thus if the masses have never heard of something, it's not a classic. Rather specious logic. Take for example, an album on many lists: Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. THE album that influenced McCartney most in setting the direction for the Pepper sessions was the Beach Boys' "Pet Sounds". (McCartney was very big on one-upsmanship. He heard "Pet Sounds" and thought right away that he had to top it. The same one-upsmanship occurred with "Helter Skelter"; after reading about a Who concert being the noisiest thing a reviewer had ever heard, McCartney felt he had to top that, too.) I don't recall seeing "Pet Sounds" on anyone's list. Not that it was obscure now. But it certainly fits the definition of "serving as a standard, model, or guide", "of enduring interest or quality", etc. that was put forth. Here I'm talking about an album that's not exactly unknown (though sadly under- remembered). What of the other lesser known albums that served as models and guides for those that followed, that still stand up today? I also don't recall seeing any Buddy Holly albums on the list, and certainly Holly's work served as a forward looking standard that influenced the future of popular music. MC5/Velvets/Eno/etc. albums influenced a whole new generation of modern day musicians, and stand as definitive statements and groundbreakers. Just because you've never heard of the groups/artists they influenced doesn't make the work any less classic. It just makes your knowledge base limited. -- "Come with me now to that secret place where the eyes of man have never set foot." Rich Rosen pyuxn!rlr
jeff@dciem.UUCP (Jeff Richardson) (10/15/84)
Rich Rosen's mention of the Sgt. Pepper/Pet Sounds situation reminds me of
something I read once: The Who's "Tommy" is thought by most to be the first
"rock opera" (I'm not sure if I like that term, but it seems to be generally
accepted and I can't think of a better term that would be nearly as short.)
type album, but Pete Townshend has admitted that he got the idea when he
heard what is really the first "rock opera" album, "S.F. Sorrow" by the Pretty
Things. But how much credit to the Pretty Things get for this highly
revolutionary and influential album? None. This is confirmed by the fact
that I had never heard of it before I read the article, and I still haven't
heard or seen the album anywhere.
--
Jeff Richardson, DCIEM, Toronto (416) 635-2073
{linus,ihnp4,uw-beaver,floyd}!utcsrgv!dciem!jeff
{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!dciem!jeff