djo@ptsfd.UUCP (10/13/86)
Greetings all. I'm a nonsectarian (though more-or-less mainstream) Christian who spends a certain amount of idle CPU time puzzling about things divine and always coming up with more questions than answers. In particular, I've been pondering the Lord's Prayer for some time now and have a few thoughts and questions. First, the version I use (taught me at my grandmother's knee, literally): "Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory, for ever, amen." (Yes, I realize "amen" isn't part of it, but it looks strange without it anywhere but in the Book.) The question that finally drove me to this posting is this: What does "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" actually mean? In particular, "Thy kingdom come" seems terribly opaque; does this mean -Your kingdom is coming? -Your kingdom has come? -When your kingdom comes (then your will will be done)? Or what? Beats me. Maybe I'm just trying too hard and I've missed something obvious; it wouldn't be the first time THAT's happened. Regarding "deliver us from evil." Nine years ago (I'm certain of the date because the sermon went on at great length about the recently-released STAR WARS), the preacher at First Presb. of Berkeley told us that the correct translation of this verse was "deliver us from the evil one." This is a major difference! Rather than asking to be protected from having evil done to us, it becomes a logical and natural extension of "Lead us not into temptation" -- if we are not tempted, the evil one won't get us in the "end." Does anyone know anything further about this? Regarding "hallowed be Thy name." This bothered me for a long time. Was it merely an extension of the Hebrew prohibition of pronouncing the Tetragrammaton, or is there something more there? I finally decided that as long as one keeps it in mind when in a mood to cuss, there's probably little more to worry about here. Disagreement? So: A possible paraphrase taking in my best interpretation of the whole, and VERY MUCH subject to revision by what the combined minds of Mod.Christian have to offer: Personal and loving Creator of us all, In a blessed and omniscient state, We address You with all possible respect. When Your kingdom comes, Your will will be done in the physical Universe, as it has always been in the spiritual. Give us today the things we need for today, and forgive us the wrongs we have done and will undoubtedly do in the future, while and to the extent that we forgive wrongs done against us by others. Strengthen our wills against the temptatian to sin, and so keep us from the clutches of our souls' adversary. We ask this of You because you are the one with authority over us and power to aid us, now and always. ***** The prose is pretty lame and I prefer the original (as I'm sure you all do too), but sometimes the words are repeated so often that something like a paraphrase is needed to restore their meaning other than as a ritual chant. In TM they give you a mantra and tell you not to worry about what it means; I think the Lord's Prayer is more significant (= meaningful) than a mantra. I hope this spurs some interesting/thoughtful discussion. If you disagree with me, that's fine; I'm not setting myself up as any sort of authority. If you MUST flame me do it by mail rather than boring others with it; but disagreement I accept in all humility, in the hope I can learn from your insights. Peace to you all, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
hedrick@topaz.UUCP (10/14/86)
The tendency in much current scholarship is to treat the Lord's prayer
as eschatalogical. That is, it is looking towards the future, when
the Lord will bring his kingdom to pass on earth. The TEV translation
is based on this interpetation:
Our Father in heaven;
May your holy name be honored;
may your Kingdom come;
Name is a semitic idiom for his power and authority. So these 2
sentences really say the same thing. "May your authority come to be
acknowledged by all." (The point is more general than cussing.)
Recall also that Jews tended to avoid the name of God, and so they
often used passive voice where God was meant. E.g. "Happy are those
who mourn; they will be comforted" is translated by TEV as "God will
comfort them." So this has the force of "God, establish your reign on
earth"
may your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
...
Do not bring us to hard testing,
but keep us safe from the Evil One.
Jewish and Christian ideas of the End both imagined that it would be
ushered in by a time of testing, in which evil forces, or Satan in
particular, would nearly be victorious. So this last request may be
connected with the request for God to bring his kingdom about. It
asks for protection against the time of testing that is expected, and
the temptations of Satan.
Note that it ends here. "For thine is the kingdom..." is not in the
best Greek texts.woof@hpfcda.UUCP (10/15/86)
I look at this prayer as more of a template, rather than a "mantra". Jesus summarized all the different things we can talk to our Father about. > Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. One aspect of prayer is adoration (worship) of God. He is so holy (hallowed) that even his name is holy. Perhaps a paraphrase of this would be "Let us worship you." > Thy kingdom come. I always looked at this as "May your kingdom come soon". This has partially happened already, as God's kingdom lives in his Church (global body of followers). It will be consummated when Jesus returns in glory. > Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Again, I always think this starts with an implied "May" -- "May people on earth (including me) please you". > Give us this day our daily bread, Please continue to take care of our basic needs -- food, shelter, clothing... > and forgive us our trespasses Pray for forgiveness of sins. (Sometimes it's too easy to ask forgiveness for our "sins", without really thinking about how we have been separating ourselves from God. I think it is important to pray for forgiveness of specific sins and to repent and pray for the power to overcome them.) > as we forgive those who trespass against us. Pray for power to forgive others. It's easier to forgive than to forget. I meditate on my relationships with others and examine what I can do to make them better, or to mend them when they're broken. > Lead us not into temptation, Pray that I do not stumble into situations where I would be tempted to do something that would hurt my relationship with God. Most of my temptations are self-imposed, so I also pray for strength over my weaknesses. > but deliver us from evil. I agree with the interpretation that this is a prayer to be sheltered from the Evil One. > For thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever. I think it is significant that the template both starts and finishes with adoration. Too often my prayers are of the form, "Give me; forgive me". God is great, and we must meditate on that. Steve Wolf Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins, CO {ihnp4|hplabs}!hpfcla!woof
credmond@watmath.UUCP (Chris Redmond) (10/16/86)
In article <6193@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> djo@ptsfd.UUCP writes: > >The question that finally drove me to this posting is this: What does >"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" actually mean? In particular, "Thy >kingdom come" seems terribly opaque; does this mean > -Your kingdom is coming? > -Your kingdom has come? > -When your kingdom comes (then your will will be done)? > >Or what? Beats me. Maybe I'm just trying too hard and I've missed something >obvious; it wouldn't be the first time THAT's happened. "Come" is a subjunctive verb, something that was much commoner in 1611 (date of the King James translation of the Bible) than it is now. Current English would express the same meaning as "May your kingdom come", which in this case I suspect implies "May it come quickly," or perhaps "May I be a helper in making it come." "Be" in the next phrase, "Thy will be done," is the same kind of verb: "may it be done," or "may I help to do it," in other words.
harry@uw-atm.UUCP (10/16/86)
One of the best explanations of the Lord's Prayer is in Luther's
Small Catechism (I probably say this because I am Lutheran).
Here is Luther's explanation of the petitions in question:
Hallowed be thy name.
What does this mean? God's name is indeed holy in itself; but we
pray in this petition that it may be holy among us also.
How is this done? When the Word of God is taught in its truth and
purity, and we, as the children of God, also lead a holy life
according to it. This grant us, dear Father in heaven. But he that
teaches and lives otherwise than God's Word teaches, profanes the
name of God among us. From this preserve us, Heavenly Father.
Thy kingdom come.
What does this mean? The kingdom of God comes indeed without our
prayer; of itself; but we pray in this petition that it may come unto
us also.
How is this done? When our heavenly Father gives us His Holy Spirit,
so that by His grace we believe His Holy Word and lead a godly life,
here in time and hereafter in eternity.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven
What does this mean? The good and gracious will of God is done
indeed without our prayer; but we pray in this petition that it may
be done among us also.
How is this done? When God breaks and hinders every evil counsel and
will which would not let us hallow God's name nor let His kingdom
come, such as the will of the devil, the world, and our flesh; but
strengthens and preserves us steadfast in His Word and faith unto our
end. This is His gracious and good will.
But deliver us from evil.
What does this mean? We pray in this petition, as the sum of all,
that our Father in heaven would deliver us from every evil of body
and soul, property and honor, and finally, when our last hour has
come, grant us a blessed end, and graciously take us from this vale
of tears to Himself in heaven.
Your brother in Christ Jesus,
---
Harry Edmon UUCP: uw-beaver!geops!uw-atm!harry
(206) 543-0547 BITNET: 24440@UWACDC
Department of Atmospheric Sciences
University of Washingtonmarty@fritz.UUCP (Marty McFadden) (10/20/86)
In article <6193@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> you write: > >The question that finally drove me to this posting is this: What does >"Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done" actually mean? I have always been a little unclear on the meaning of "Thy kingdom come", but maybe what I feel "Thy will be done" means will help render a disscussion that might make the statement a little less vague in my mind. I feel that "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" is in present tense and is a statement of the NOW. I pray that Thy will be done, ie. I pray that with the help of the holy spirit that I and my fellow Christian family live to God's will. I don't know if this helps or confuses the issue all the more, I am very interested in this disscussion. BTW, I am a new poster to this group. Please send flames directly to me or directly to your systems administrator. thank-you... Brothers in Christ, -marty Martin J. McFadden {decvax, ucbvax}trwrb!felix!marty FileNet Corp. Costa Mesa, Ca. [aaargh. Two more zero-length submissions. Please try to find a route to topaz that does not involve seismo. --clh]
harwood@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) (10/21/86)
The phrase "on earth as in heaven" belongs to each of the first three which are concerned with God's glory. This is a traditional Jewish concept, exemplified when Moses, later David, was to build a Tabernacle, later Temple, for the Lord on Earth after the design of the one in Heaven revealed to him by God. This is what Christ is doing - making a heavenly Temple among the hearts of mankind; and for this reason, more than any other, Jesus is called "Son of David", since he is the spiritual descendent of David who would build a Temple for the Lord on Earth, just as we are by our faith the offspring of Abraham. Otherwise, some of the verses are perhaps related to other texts: "Our Father ... Hallowed be Thy Name" -> John 12, "Father, glorify Your Name," also cf John 17, "I have made Your Name known...," Christ being the self-revelation of God. Cf Exodus 3 where God first reveals Himself (His Name, His self-revelation flashing from amidst "the bush") to Moses; also the Messianic Psalm 22, "I shall proclaim Your Name to my brothers..." "Thy kingdom come..." -> the ambiguity of the realized/future kingdom of God, realized among some and to be fulfilled among all, with the coming of Christ. The same ambiguity lies in the traditional NT Greek expression, "Maranatha" - the Lord has come/ Let the Lord come. As well known, "Give us this day our daily bread ..." is the petition for the providential manna which appeared daily to the Hebrews as they journeyed in the wilderness of Sin. Found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Qumran Psalter of ~100 B.C. includes additional Psalms of David, with these verses from pre-Christian Psalm 155: "My transgressions do not remember against me..." becomes "Forgive us our tresspasses ..." We also have in QPs155, "The rewards of evil may the Judge of truth turn away from me..." And "Oh Lord, do not condemn me according to my sins ..." becomes the Lukan, "Forgive us our sins ..." The traditional Jewish concept of the symmetry of God's justice is present everywhere in the Gospels: God judges individuals as we judge others; our kindness and mercy, else unkindness and retaliation, is reflected back upon us. So we have "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," and earlier Hillel's "Do not to others what you would not have others do to you," also found in the very important first century Christian writing, Didache. And similarly the Lukan version of the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our sins as we forgive others ..."; and in Mattean admonition, "if you do not forgive others their failings, neither shall our heavenly Father forgive you." Also we read in QPs155, "lead me not into that which is too difficult for me," which becomes "lead us not into temptation..." And there, "O Lord, purify me from the evil plague, and do not let it return again to me...", becomes "Deliver us from evil (or the evil one)." An marginal annotation to one Syriac version of Ps 155 has "the man" referring to "plague", perhaps paralleling the personification, "evil one". How very important for our understanding of NT thought is the ancient religious ideology of Judaism, especially of the Essenes at Qumran, as well as of the Pharisees who precede rabbinical Judaism. Both old and new are stubbornly misunderstood without the other. As an aside, I like to point out to my friends that Judaism and Christianity are like the ass and its colt offspring which bear the Messiah unto the City of Peace - the colt of the ass being the only unclean animal to be redeemed for service, by sacrifice of a perfect lamb. Cf Exodus on the feast of first-fruits (Tabernacles). Christ comes upon the ass, itself cloaked with garments of the disciples - the ass is as them. Of course, the Messianic prophecy of Zechariah is to be fulfilled by Christ; this is derived by elaboration of Jewish tradition from the earlier Messianic blessing in Genesis of Judah by Jacob, which refers to the colt and ass which are tethered together, as in the Gospel, to the eternal vine. Now, Luke, written for Gentile Christians, follows Mark and has Christ come upon the colt of an ass - the offspring alone; one might say, upon Gentile Christians without Jews. But Matthew was written for Jewish Christian communities, according to scholars -- and there we read that Christ has come upon both the ass and its offspring colt; one might say, upon Jews as well as their Gentile religious offspring. The Lord has come/May the Lord come. David Harwood
harwood@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) (10/21/86)
[no, the lineeater has not suddenly struck Rutgers. The last message had a tab where one didn't belong. Let's try this again. In a Christian group, it is *not* appropriate to offer sacrifices to the lineeater. --clh] As RSV notes, there are 7 petitions to the Lord's Prayer. The phrase "on earth as in heaven" belongs to each of the first three which are concerned with God's glory. This is a traditional Jewish concept, exemplified when Moses, later David, was to build a Tabernacle, later Temple, for the Lord on Earth after the design of the one in Heaven revealed to him by God. This is what Christ is doing - making a heavenly Temple among the hearts of mankind; and for this reason, more than any other, Jesus is called "Son of David", since he is the spiritual descendent of David who would build a Temple for the Lord on Earth, just as we are by our faith the offspring of Abraham. Otherwise, some of the verses are perhaps related to other texts: "Our Father ... Hallowed be Thy Name" -> John 12, "Father, glorify Your Name," also cf John 17, "I have made Your Name known...," Christ being the self-revelation of God. Cf Exodus 3 where God first reveals Himself (His Name, His self-revelation flashing from amidst "the bush") to Moses; also the Messianic Psalm 22, "I shall proclaim Your Name to my brothers..." "Thy kingdom come..." -> the ambiguity of the realized/future kingdom of God, realized among some and to be fulfilled among all, with the coming of Christ. The same ambiguity lies in the traditional NT Greek expression, "Maranatha" - the Lord has come/ Let the Lord come. As well known, "Give us this day our daily bread ..." is the petition for the providential manna which appeared daily to the Hebrews as they journeyed in the wilderness of Sin. Found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Qumran Psalter of ~100 B.C. includes additional Psalms of David, with these verses from pre-Christian Psalm 155: "My transgressions do not remember against me..." becomes "Forgive us our tresspasses ..." We also have in QPs155, "The rewards of evil may the Judge of truth turn away from me..." And "Oh Lord, do not condemn me according to my sins ..." becomes the Lukan, "Forgive us our sins ..." The traditional Jewish concept of the symmetry of God's justice is present everywhere in the Gospels: God judges individuals as we judge others; our kindness and mercy, else unkindness and retaliation, is reflected back upon us. So we have "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," and earlier Hillel's "Do not to others what you would not have others do to you," also found in the very important first century Christian writing, Didache. And similarly the Lukan version of the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our sins as we forgive others ..."; and in Mattean admonition, "if you do not forgive others their failings, neither shall our heavenly Father forgive you." Also we read in QPs155, "lead me not into that which is too difficult for me," which becomes "lead us not into temptation..." And there, "O Lord, purify me from the evil plague, and do not let it return again to me...", becomes "Deliver us from evil (or the evil one)." An marginal annotation to one Syriac version of Ps 155 has "the man" referring to "plague", perhaps paralleling the personification, "evil one". How very important for our understanding of NT thought is the ancient religious ideology of Judaism, especially of the Essenes at Qumran, as well as of the Pharisees who precede rabbinical Judaism. Both old and new are stubbornly misunderstood without the other. As an aside, I like to point out to my friends that Judaism and Christianity are like the ass and its colt offspring which bear the Messiah unto the City of Peace - the colt of the ass being the only unclean animal to be redeemed for service, by sacrifice of a perfect lamb. Cf Exodus on the feast of first-fruits (Tabernacles). Christ comes upon the ass, itself cloaked with garments of the disciples - the ass is as them. Of course, the Messianic prophecy of Zechariah is to be fulfilled by Christ; this is derived by elaboration of Jewish tradition from the earlier Messianic blessing in Genesis of Judah by Jacob, which refers to the colt and ass which are tethered together, as in the Gospel, to the eternal vine. Now, Luke, written for Gentile Christians, follows Mark and has Christ come upon the colt of an ass - the offspring alone; one might say, upon Gentile Christians without Jews. But Matthew was written for Jewish Christian communities, according to scholars -- and there we read that Christ has come upon both the ass and its offspring colt; one might say, upon Jews as well as their Gentile religious offspring. The Lord has come/May the Lord come. David Harwood
harwood@cvl.UUCP (David Harwood) (10/22/86)
In my previous posting, I mentioned the so-called
eschatological ambiguity of the verse of our Lord's Prayer,
"Thy kingdom come...", which is ambiguous between what is
realized for some and what is yet to be fulfilled. I noted
that it was similar to the ancient NT expression "maranatha"
which is ambiguous in the same way, meaning "The Lord has come"
or "May the Lord come." Depending on how it is parsed.
However, I said that this expression was NT Greek, but
what I should have said was that it occurs literally in the
NT Greek text -- but it is one of the few Aramaic expressions
which are left for some reason in NT Greek writings. Perhaps
these remaining Aramaic words had special significance to earliest
Christians. I was suggesting in my article that the expression
was intended to be ambiguous. (There are other examples of
intentional ambiguity in ancient Jewish writing - many ones;
eg Hebrew "ruah" occurring in Genesis 1 is given ambiguous
interpretation, "The spirit/wind of God was hovered upon the waters."
('waters' is ambiguous as well). 'Ruah' also has three meanings in
Ezekiel's account of the resurrection of 'the dry bones of Israel',
where it means spirit/wind/breath. The same ambiguity of senses
is possible in Greek 'pneuma', which translates 'ruah', and is
exploited most famously in the NT in John 3 with the meanings
spirit/wind.
My point is that Jewish Christian writing exploits verbal
ambiguity.
(By the way - since I mentioned Ezekiel's account of the
resurrection of the dry bones of Israel - Paul somewhat obscurely
remarks in Romans, that the conversion of the Jews in the end would
be like "the resurrection of the dead." Obviously he is reminded of
what Ezekiel prophesied. This gives yet another example of ambiguity
of Jewish religious concepts - that of "the resurrection". [Two are
mentioned in Revelation as well, first that of the martyrs (Greek
witnesses), later the general resurrection. There were different
interpretations of these in early Christianity.)
David Harwood