sjb@hpfcrj.UUCP (Stuart Bobb) (11/06/86)
I would be very interested in hearing various interpretations from net readers in regards to a passage in Romans 9:14-21. It deals with the concept of God's favor being given to some, but not to others. A central theme in the passage would be verse 18 which says (Today's English Version) "So then, God has mercy on anyone he wishes, and he makes stubborn anyone he wishes" Taken at a literal value, I find this to be a very disturbing passage. The obvious question arises in v 19 "... If this is so, how can God find fault with anyone? Who can resist God's will?". Paul responds with an analogy about clay pots questioning their creator. I have trouble with his analogy, for people are of far greater value in God's eyes than clay pots are in ours. (At least I believe this to be the case). Furthermore, the maker of a clay pot would hardly consider a spittoon cursed because it is not a flower vase. In considering this, avoid giving "off-the-cuff" answers or simple platitudes. I am very much aware of Romans 11:33 as a typical response to this passage. "How great are God's riches! How deep are his wisdom and knowledge! Who can explain his decisions? Who can understand his ways?" The central question I have is not so much a question of God, but a question as to why Paul considers his clay pot analogy to be a sufficient answer. Stuart Bobb ihnp4!hpfcla!sjb My employer is in the business of marketing computers and other precision instruments, not opinions. I should not be considered an official source of the latter for Hewlett-Packard.
randall@ncr-sd.UUCP (11/17/86)
Dear Stuart: The following is my opinion, but I trust close to the truth: Regarding Romans 9:14-21, specifically v18 "So then, God has mercy on anyone He has mercy, and He makes stubborn those whom He resists", think of it this way..."So then those who desire and ask for mercy, and are continually desiring mercy, God is merciful, but to those who are continually stubborn, and willful, implacable,full of pride, and not wanting to change, He solidifies in their stubborn determined choice" etc,etc. The point Paul is making about the clay pot is that God has given us, via our human nature, basically 2 choices. We can choose His mercy, to make us merciful, as an imparted virtue, or we can choose to NOT have God's mercy, leaving us implacable, hard, stubborn, resistant, and proud. The choice is ours, however, we are still the clay, and the choice one way or the other, is going to determine the shape of that clay. Can we choose not to be either merciful/unmerciful, say tribulifont? or medicanditorious? No, those choices do not exist, except in our imagination, as the valid choices have already been predetermined, long, long before we were even born. Yes people are of infinite value in God's eyes, as He did die for all of us, however it is the low value that people place upon themselves and the rejection of God's mercy that makes them into worthless vessels. Finally God is not afraid of being questioned by His creation, as He delights in honest questioning, but woe be to the one who challenges His authority, and does not want to be under His rule, as he will get what he really is asking for, and that is an eternity without God, with the eventual end of eternal death and destruction. The choice is ours, let's make the most of it. "Choose you this day life, that you may live...Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked? says the Lord" Hope this goes toward answering your concern...Sincerely, Randall
ptl@fluke.UUCP (11/17/86)
Hi, Stuart Bobb (ihnp4!hpfcla!sjb) mentions how Romans 9:14-21 disturbs him. He goes on to mention how the clay pot analogy doesn't come across well. It is a disturbing section of Paul's writings. To help myself understand it better, I turned to William Barclay. He is a fantastic Bible scholar. His writings are very informative, interesting, and down to earth. You might want to get his Bible study book on "The Letter to the Romans", revised edition, Westminster Press, 1975. In this and his other Bible study books, he'll take a short portion of the letter, then write a page or two bringing up background information, other Bible scholars' interpretations, ancient and present historians' and theologians' inputs, and personal insites. Not boring at all. Barclay mentions that the analogy may be a bad one. And he sites reasons that included yours. He does mention, though, that the Gospels point to a God who treats us as His children, not lumps of clay. He goes on, thinking about Paul's background and current circumstances. He says Paul probably could come up with no better reason for his own Jewish kinsmen killing Jesus than to believe God was somehow involved for purposes of His own. And to the Jewish mind, God is behind everything --- look at the prophets and their writings. So for Paul, this analogy fit well with his belief in God being behind everything that happens, and that it is not for us to question. Just like clay doesn't question the person shaping it for whatever purpose. Aside from Barclay, I've heard the analogy looked at another way. God is the potter making and reshaping us. As long as we don't harden, as in harden our hearts against God, the potter can continue to mold and shape us for His use. Also the clay pot is fired to harden it once it is ready for its purpose, like the fire we sometimes go through to prepare us for God's work. Remember that Paul was an up front, real person - didn't beat around the bush, spoke his mind, and felt complete trust in God was manditory for faith. The entire letter to the Romans is an excellant place to start if you want to get a flavor for Paul's beliefs in God, and his own personal drive. His letter to the Romans is more a talk with you, than a letter. The person who wrote it down for him must have had a bad case of writers cramp trying to keep up with Paul as he spoke. Try Barclay - you'll like him. God Bless, Mike Andrews (PTL)