christian@topaz.UUCP (12/12/86)
[I'm not going to chance seeing what inews would do the original
from field. Here it is. --clh]
<cmcl2!ADZ%PSUVMB.BITNET> (Gerald Aungst (814) 862-2279),
(611 Sproul Hall), (University Park, PA), (16802)
A friend of mine, Mr. Wyck Clark (Catholic), and I (Atheist) examined
the 17 points listed on the card (posted in "Can you identify this
group?", by hays@apcisea.uucp (John Hays)) from, apparently, the
LDS church. We examined the scripture verses cited after each point,
and came up with the following notes. Statements that do not conflict
with Standard, Mainstream Christian thought (those are my terms) are
omitted for space considerations. Also, quotations from the verses
are limited, as anyone who really wants to know should not have any
trouble finding a Bible SOMEWHERE....
2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ. (Eph. 5:23)
This verse contains nothing stating that the church must
BEAR THE NAME of Jesus Christ, only that Christ is to be
considered the leader of the church.
6. The true church must have no paid ministry. (Isa. 45:13, 1 Peter 5:2)
My friend tends to believe that OT references are of limited
relevance in this list, as the church represents a new regime.
Christ in the NT changes other rules (e.g. allowing consumption
of pork), and so the NT must be considered a new, revised
edition, so to speak. As for 1 Peter 5:2, the verse mentions
that one should "Feed the flock of God...not for filthy
lucre...." which means DISHONEST GAIN. It does NOT say
there should be NO paid ministry.
7. The true church must baptize by immersion. (Matt. 3:13-16)
This verse simply says that Jesus was baptized this way. It
does not imply that this is the only possible method.
10. ...God and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct individuals
(John 17:11 and John 20:17)
In fact, John 17:11 actually *contradicts* this statement.
It says "...that they may be ONE as we are." Even I, the
atheist, see this as evidence for the Trinity, and not for
distinction between them. As well, John 20:17 is not proof
of separation, but only of the existence of three parts of
a whole.
11. ...God and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone.
(Luke 24:36-39 and Acts 1:9-11)
These say nothing of God Himself having a physical body, except
as far as Jesus is a part of God. They do not mention God as
a whole, only that Jesus has physical form.
15. The true church must be a restored church. (Acts 3:19-20)
Here, I quote Mr. Clark, as he put it better than I:
"This is a second coming reference; it says to the Jews that
they must repent before the restoration of ALL things--not
just the church. (READ CONTEXT!)"
16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead.
(1 Cor. 15:16,29)
Again, Mr. Clark speaks:
"{Paul} is telling them that baptism for the dead is proof
of their belief in ressurection--I doubt he is condoning
baptism by proxy. However, this is their {the LDS church's}
best argument."
Mr. Clark asked me to include the following for him, as he does not have
access to the network, other than through me:
==================================
Attention Mormons:
The True Church was not to be knocked over by the Great Apostasy,
and then shocked back to life like an octogenarian with a weak heart.
Apostasy has caused temporary reverses, but is guaranteed not to
succeed in overthrowing the Church, because of the presence of the
Holy Spirit within it. Please read Matt. 16:18, 28:20, and John
14:16, 16:7-8.
One cannot find the True Church unless he is familiar with its
distinctive characteristics:
- It is one (John 17:21-22, 1 Cor. 12:12-20, Eph. 4:3-6)
- It is holy (1 Peter 2:5-10)
- It is universal in time and nationality (Matt. 28:19-20,
Rev. 7:9-10, Micah 5:2, Dan. 2:44)
- It is apostolic (Matt. 16:18-19, 1 Cor. 12:28)
This True Church has been preserved on earth because of Christ's
continuous presence within it since Pentecost--and Christ will be
with it until the end of the age (Matt. 28:20).
-- Wyck Clark
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Just to clear up a possible misunderstanding (because two people who
proofread this letter were both misled by the statement...), the first
sentence reads "...shocked back to life LIKE an octogenarian...." not
"...shocked back to life BY an octogenarian...." Mr. Clark is simply
using an analogy, and is in no way referring to the founder of the LDS
church, Joseph Smith.
Some people may be wondering why I, an atheist, am taking sides in this
discussion. I should be arguing against BOTH sides, you say. My interest
in this is not to prove or disprove either side (though if forced to make
a choice, I would be more likely NOT to believe what the Mormons are
saying) but simply to generate discussion on the topic. Mr. Clark and I,
as well as another friend of ours who is Mormon, have been discussing this
topic for many years, and I am fascinated and thrilled that others are just
as enthusiastic about it as I am. I might add that during our "arguments"
on the topic, we rarely if ever come to any rock-bottom conclusions, but
we do gain a much clearer understanding of the other side's point of view.
I hope that this debate continues in the spirit of educating others, rather
than that of converting them.
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:: Respond, comment, even flame. Just don't send any letter bombs. ::
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:: Gerald Aungst : The Pennsylvania State University ::
:: ihnp4!psuvax1!psuvmb!adz : Home of the Nittany Lions ::
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:: The views above are mine, and no one else can have them. ::
:: Even if they wanted them. Which they probably don't. ::
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:: "When I think of something worthwhile to say, I'll say it." ::
:: -- Gerald Aungst ::
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