christian@topaz.UUCP (03/02/87)
2Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago- whether in the
the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God
knows- such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know how such a man- whether in the body or apart from the
the body I do not know, God knows-
4 was caught up into Paradise, and heard inexpressible words, which
a man is not permitted to speak.
First, what is the third heaven?
These passages seem to describe an ecstatic state that is common to the
Mystics of many religions. Was Paul a Mystic?
Dave Hatcherharwood@cvl.uucp (David Harwood) (03/09/87)
[This message is in reponse to a question about 2 Cor 12:2, which describes a mystical experience, refering specifically to being raised to the "third heaven". The question asks whether Paul was a mystic, and what the third heaven is. --clh] Religious mysticism is not a well-defined concept. Paul certainly did not voluntarily induce an altered state of consciousness by regimen of any kind, as some other religious practice suggests. However, Paul may be called a "mystic" in two specific senses, which are intimately related to Judaism in the first place, and to Christianity in the second. His mysticism has been called "Christ mysticism" by some. In ancient and later Judaism there are various "mystical" practices as well as doctrines, but most of these are misleading, in my opinion, and have nothing to do with Paul's experience, or with Judaism. However, the foundation of Judaism may also be considered "mystical" in that it involves revelation of God's presence and intention by divine illumination which is experienced subjectively (or intersubjectively). This was known before in Jewish tradition, and became known to the apostles of Christ. It is still known today among Church traditions. When Paul speaks about the revelation of Christ to him on the road to Damascus, calling him to be an apostle for Christ, he is speaking about the subjective experience of the glory (divine light) which made known to him that Jesus was Christ, also mercifully judging Paul in that instant, calling him to be a witness for Christ Jesus. This vision of divine light which dignifies Jesus as Christ is what is meant by the "glorified Christ." It is called the light of Christ, which is the ultimate foundation of the faith of the apostles, as Jesus said to Peter - "No man, but God alone has revealed to you (that I am He)." This revelation is subjective, or better, intersubjective, since it is the same among witnesses for Christ. It is also possible for God make known his intention about other things in the same way, by illuminating our reflections; however this is not a matter of regimen of any kind, but always of unexpected grace. (I am not saying anything about this that is not found in even earliest Church traditions. It is not commonly known among "fundementalists" I suppose, or "liberals", on the other hand, but is well-known in Catholic tradition, but also early Quaker tradition, for much different examples.) There is a second sense of "Christ mysticism" with Paul, as when Paul says, "I live - but not I, for it is Christ who lives in me." Every true Christian understands that in a real sense that Christ gave up his life so that we may live; indeed the ultimate meaning of the Resurrection is that we die to our former selves, so that we may share in the eternal life of Christ. So there is a "mystical" identity of Christians with their Savior, all sharing His life. (I should say that it is not necessary to "see the Light" in order to share in the life and spirit of Christ. The first are called to be witnesses usually. Some may disagree with me about this - many "fundemantalists" and "liberals" may be offended. But then I can't stand Falwell et al. (I respect Billy Graham, on the other hand.) I recall that there was a very similar controversy in early Quakerism about convincement, about whether converts must "see the Light" - they decided not, but they must repent and be faithful.) Returning to the other question about Paul's being raised up to the third heaven. Tis can only be understood with respect to contemporary Jewish religious concepts. At that time, there was a way of describing the religious experience of divine revelation: the self-revelation of God (in glory) made known to one that one was immediately in the Presence of God. Now as I said before, this is a subjective experience, not (necessarily) manifest to others nearby. So it was on the road to Damascus, when Christ was revealed in the divine glory (Light flashed from heaven - note that Christ was also made known to the "shepherds" by "angels" as the glory of the Lord shone about - traditionally an "angel of the Lord" is a traditional figure for such an apparition of light, having some signification or message.) The various accounts in Acts are uncertain about whether others about Paul also witnessed the blinding flash or heard the message, which was the divine revelation. It was real and supernatural, but subjective perception. Therefore, Paul in II Cortinthians is once again referring to divine revelation, perhaps of Christ Jesus on the road to Damascus, perhaps about other matters to which he sometimes refers in his letters. When he says that he is uncertain whether he was in or out of body he means, in ancient thinking, that he is uncertain about whether the experience was what we call subjective or objective (not spiritual vs material). Whe he talks about being taken up to the third heaven, we have once again to understand contemporary Jewish religious expression, in which the divine illumination (Light flashed from heaven - recall Jesus said his coming was like the divine lightning!) indicated the immediate Presence of God (Shekinah in later tradition -light of God's Presence). Now the immediate Presence of God was sometimes identified with the highest heaven, not a location - but "where" God was in holy Presence, so that witnesses of divine revelation were said to be raised up to highest heaven; that is, to be in God's immediate and holy Presence, at which some knowledge or intention was communicated. It is a manner of speaking - in plain modern language, Paul is saying that God revealed Himself (and Christ) in a subjective experience of divine illumination. This Jewish "mystical" traditional language predates Christianity, and is found among the Qumran scrolls, and especially among later "Merkabah" mysticism, also orthodox doctrines (eg about the great Rabbi Akiba of the 2nd century). It speaks about "ascending" to heavens to have mysteries revealed by angels or God. (however, some of these unorthodox sects involved ignorant practices again, as if one could voluntarily "ascend to heaven". Ancient psychology was very much different from our understanding - always keep this in mind.) Finally, some Jewish tradition said there were three heavens, the third being the highest, "where" was the Presence of the glory of God. However, most traditions said there were seven. Some speak about "ascending" to highest heaven, others to "descending" to "highest" heaven (like concentric rings of a rainbow, or wheels within wheels, to use some traditional phrases). Both the great Rabbi Maimonides and the Christian mystic Teresa of Avila speak about God residing in an innermost room within others within still others, as of a Temple (even veiled within the heart of man) I suggest that the "model" for Paul's three tiered heaven is that of the Temple, with the outer room, the Holy, and the Holy of Holies, where God revealed Himself to the High Priest once a year, when His Name was invoked there. [Note that Jesus is our High Priest, who invokes His Name, the same Name of God, in our hearts, the true Holy of Holies, the "heaven" were is God's Presence). Anyway, Christ, in the same divine glory of God, was revealed from beyond the veil of Paul's innermost consciousness.
hays@apollo.uucp (John Hays) (03/09/87)
In article <9755@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> daveh@tekcrl.uucp writes: >2Cor 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago- whether in the > the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God > knows- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. ... > First, what is the third heaven? > > These passages seem to describe an ecstatic state that is common to the > Mystics of many religions. Was Paul a Mystic? > > > Dave Hatcher Question: ... What is the third heaven? In St. John 14:2, CHRIST says: "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." By this it is meant that the Father has prepared many mansions or kingdoms for the resurrected bodies of His children. In 1 Corinthians, Paul discusses the resurrection at great length, speaking of the death which came about by the fall of Adam and the resurrection made possible by the Atonement of Christ. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." - 1 COR 15:22 From this statement we learn that resurrection is universal or in other words EVERY PERSON WHO HAS LIVED WILL BE RESURRECTED. Paul continues in verse 23: "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterwards they that are Christ's at his coming." Paul through the next several verses lays out the ultimate victory over both physical and spiritual death. Asks questions of those who practiced baptism for the dead yet questioned the reality of the resurrection. Then describes the state of bodies resurrected beginning in the 40th verse: "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestial is another." But this is only TWO, however in the next verse it becomes obvious he knew of THREE: "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory." And relates this to the resurrection in verse 42: "So also is the resurrection of the dead..." Now this all being the case we learn that: 1. Resurrection comes to ALL. (Not just those who know Christ) 2. The Father has more than one kingdom or mansion. 3. When men are resurrected they may be resurrected to one of at least 3 glories or bodies. It would be unreasonable to put the repentant believer with the sinner who willfully rejects Christ, so we traditional speak of heaven and hell, but from these passages it suggests that the Father has many rewards (i.e. mansions) and these have differing glories (one of the sun, one of the moon, and one of the stars). Perhaps at Christ's judgement of man he rewards them according to their faith in him and the actions of their lives resurrecting some to each of these glories and if they all be "Heaven's" then the 3rd heaven would be the highest which is where Christ dwells with the Father, the one with the glory of the SUN, or the Celestial. This is the 3rd heaven which Paul speaks of. In 2 Cor 12:1-5 Paul is bearing testimony of Christ and his own vision of the 3rd Heaven and because of the glory of it he could neither determine if he (Paul) was in the body or in the spirit nor speak of the things which he saw because of the law of God's command. In Him whom we serve, John
christian@topaz.UUCP (03/11/87)
I believe the 'mysticism' of Paul is essentially
the same as that of other 'mystics' of Christian tradition,
however strange this may seem to us moderns:
"No psychologist, for example ('among today's
more sophisticated experts') would be likely to discern
-- or admit it, if he did -- an inner illumination or
a divine inspiration in Inigo (Ignatius of Loyola). He
would not understand reality as Inigo regarded reality.
The whole idea of the uncreated light of the Holy Spirit
promised by Christ to his followers -- a central idea
that animated Inigo -- would be unacceptable as an
outmoded superstition."
From a recent 1987 book, _Jesuits_: The Society
of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church_,
by Malachi Martin, well-known Vatican expert and Catholic
writer. The context of the excerpt is criticism of the
religious motivations of original versus modern Jesuit
society.