ln63wmp@sdcc7.uucp (Vasu Murty) (03/17/87)
[I have changed the lettering in the message below. In the original, two sets of items were lettered starting at a. I changed the second set to numbers, to make it easier to refer to points. --clh] "Give me the liberty to know, to utter and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties...Let truth and falsehood grapple. Who ever knew truth put to the worst in a fair and open encounter?" ---Milton "Areopagitica" Hi, everybody. Once again, I respond to your postings. With regard to the contradictory gospel accounts of the Resurrection, I must admit I find the "liberal" interpretation of scripture (i.e., it is merely a statement of faith, or a vehicle through which Jesus' teachings are emphasized, subject to human limitation and not flawless) to be a much more reasonable position. This is because if we take the Bible literally, as the perfect and inerrant word of God, all sorts of problems occur. For example, the Bible tells us: a)David took 700 (2 Samuel 8:4), vs. 7000 (1 Chronicles 18:4) horsemen from Hadadezar.. b)Ahaziah was 22 (2 Kings 8:26), vs. 42 (2 Chronicles 22:2) when he began to reign. c)Jehoiachin was 18 (2 Kings 24:8), vs. 8 (2 Chronicles 36:9) when he began to reign. d)In Israel there were 800,000 men (2 Samuel 24:9), vs. 1,100,000 (1 Chronicles 21:5) men that drew the sword. And there were 500,000 (2 Samuel 24:9), vs. 470,000 (1 Chronicles 21:5) men that drew the sword in Judah. e)There were 550 (1 Kings 9:23), vs. 250 (2 Chronicles 8:10) chiefs of the officers that ruled over the people. f)Michal (Saul's daughter) had no sons (2 Samuel 6:23), vs. 5 sons (2 Samuel 21:8). g)Lot was Abraham's brother (Genesis 14:14), vs. his nephew (Genesis 14:12) h)Joseph was sold into slavery by the Midianites (Genesis 37:36), vs. by Ishmaelites (Genesis 39:1). i)Saul was killed by his own hands (1 Samuel 31:4), vs. by a young Amelekite (2 Samuel 1:10), vs. by the Philistines (2 Samuel 21:12). j)Solomon made a molten sea which contained 2000 (1 Kings 7:26), vs. 3000 (2 Chronicles 4:5) baths. k)Workers on the Temple had 3,300 (1 Kings 5:16), vs. 3,600 (2 Chronicles 2:18) overseers. l)The earth does (Ecclesiastes 1:4), vs. does not (2 Peter 3:10, Matthew 24:35) abide forever. m)If Jesus bears witness of himself, his witness is true (John 8:14), vs. is not true (John 5:31). n)Josiah died at Megiddo (2 Kings 23:29-30), vs. at Jerusalem (2 Chronicles 35:24). o)Jesus led Peter, James and John up a high mountain after six (Matthew 17:1, Mark 9:2), vs. eight (Luke 9:28) days. p)Nebuzaradan came unto Jerusalem on the 7th (2 Kings 25:8), vs. 10th (Jeremiah 52:12) day of the fifth month. q)Good works should (Matthew 5:16), vs. should not (Matthew 6:1) be seen. r)We must (Luke 14:26), vs. must not (1 John 3:15) hate our brothers. According to the Bible: 1)The bat is a bird (Leviticus 11:13,19; Deuteronomy 14:11,18). 2)Some fowls are four-footed (Leviticus 11:20-21). 3)Some creeping insects have four legs (Leviticus 11:22-23). 4)Hares chew the cud (Leviticus 11:6). 5)The earth rests on pillars (1 Samuel 2:8). 6)The earth won't be moved (1 Chronicles 16:30). 7)The earth has edges (Job 37:3). 8)The earth has four corners (Isaiah 11:12, Revelations 7:1). 9)Some four-legged animals fly (Leviticus 11:21). 10)"...and John was baptizing in Aenon,, near Salim" (John 3:23) there never existed such a place! 11)"...the same came therefore to Philip, who was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him..." (John 12:21). Bethsaida is in Gaulonitis, not Galilee. 12)Joshua 15:21-32 tells us there were 29 cities in the South belonging to the tribe of the people of Judah, but it then proceeds to list 36! 13)Jehoram began to reign at the age of 32, for 8 years. Ahaziah became king at age 42 (2 Chronicles 21:10), taking over immediately after his father's death. This means the son was two years older than his father! 14)According to Matthew, Jesus was born before the death of Herod, which occurred in 4 B.C. Luke contradicts him by saying he was born during the registration under Cyrenius (that "all the world should be taxed"), which occurred in 7 A.D. All these contradictions make me ask: how reliable a scripture is the Bible? Christians use the Bible to demonstrate that they posess the truth, and they cite the Resurrection of Jesus as "proof" that their religion is somehow superior to others. But the Resurrection accounts (like so much else in the Bible) are contradictory! Mike Andrews put forth the witnesses-at-an-auto-crash explanation...which is often used by apologists. The problem here is that the accounts are mutually exclusive. If someone told me the accident occurred on 4th and Market at 3pm, and someone else told me it occurred on 17th and Mission at 7:30 pm, and both claimed to be a perfect source of authority, I would immediately become suspicious. This is not to say the Resurrection never happened...it very well might have. I don't know; I wasn't there. Regarding the issue of Jesus' divinity, the virgin birth, etc... I'm discussing these at length in a separate article, which I hope the moderator will post. The reason for this is that this article itself is extremely lengthy! Let me say, however, I'm grateful to be given the chance to be heard and to hear your responses. I look forward to more answers! Vasu Murty UC San Diego "To believe in immortality, one needs something more than the gloomy doctrine of Resurrection." ---Thomas Paine
christian@topaz.UUCP (03/29/87)
[I'm relaxing the usual rule about quotations, since I think it is useful to see how proponents of inerrancy deal with the sorts of problems Vasu brought up, and it is hard to see how to do that other than point by point I do not have a path back to larry that is pure UUCP. However I think there is a reasonable chance that elroy!mc1!larry would work. --clh] Hello Vasu, My name is Larry and I'd like to respond to your posting. I believe that there are very good explanations for the "problems" you point out and I'd like to share them with you. (I did the same thing with your Ressurrection posting but I have "lost" it. I am in the process of trying to find it). Before I begin, I was wondering how much of these texts you found yourself and how many you had pointed out to you from another source? And also, have you read the passages in CONTEXT? The reason I ask will become obvious. > > a)David took 700 (2 Samuel 8:4), vs. 7000 (1 Chronicles 18:4) > horsemen from Hadadezar.. > e)There were 550 (1 Kings 9:23), vs. 250 (2 Chronicles 8:10) > chiefs of the officers that ruled over the people. > j)Solomon made a molten sea which contained 2000 (1 Kings 7:26), > vs. 3000 (2 Chronicles 4:5) baths. > k)Workers on the Temple had 3,300 (1 Kings 5:16), vs. 3,600 > (2 Chronicles 2:18) overseers. > b)Ahaziah was 22 (2 Kings 8:26), vs. 42 (2 Chronicles 22:2) when > he began to reign. > c)Jehoiachin was 18 (2 Kings 24:8), vs. 8 (2 Chronicles 36:9) when > he began to reign. > d)In Israel there were 800,000 men (2 Samuel 24:9), vs. 1,100,000 > (1 Chronicles 21:5) men that drew the sword. And there were > 500,000 (2 Samuel 24:9), vs. 470,000 (1 Chronicles 21:5) men > that drew the sword in Judah. All of these discrepencies are easily understood when you understand the means by which copies of the original text were obtained by us. Scribes had to pain- stakingly copy each of the documents letter for letter. For hundreds of years this was done, and it was done many many times. This is bound to expose the copies to human error in copying. Add to the fact that Hebrew numbers are rep- resented by letters and are the most difficult to read and copy and you can see what might have happened. For example, take letter b above. If you look closely at the Hebrew symbols for 20 and 40, you see they look very much alike and could easily be mistaken if the handwriting is not clear. In letter c above, it is thought, and very possible, that a scribe left out the symbol for 10. In copying thousands of characters, this is a very reasonable mistake. (Of course, if entire passages and meanings are changed, then I would become suspicous). And in letter d above, copyist errors are possible *or* it could be attributed to inclusion or exclusion of the "standing army" (Davidson's "Sacred Hermeneutics", p546, 547) > f)Michal (Saul's daughter) had no sons (2 Samuel 6:23), vs. > 5 sons (2 Samuel 21:8). This may very simply mean "had no child henceforth" (after reading the pasage myself, this was my initial thought) or, scholars have stated that Michal could have been mistaken for Merab (Edwald and DeWette) > g)Lot was Abraham's brother (Genesis 14:14), vs. his nephew > (Genesis 14:12) The terms "brother" and "sister" are used with great latitude of meaning in the Bible. You must take this into consideration because it dissolves the problem rather easily. (I *often* call my close Christian friends "brother" but it does not mean I am under the impression we have the same parents) > h)Joseph was sold into slavery by the Midianites (Genesis 37:36), > vs. by Ishmaelites (Genesis 39:1). Twoj proposed explanations. The two tribes were often confused due to common descent and custom similarities (Keel) or the Ishmaelites could have been the proprietors of the caravan, which consisted mainly a significant number of Midianites (Lange) > i)Saul was killed by his own hands (1 Samuel 31:4), vs. by a young > Amelekite (2 Samuel 1:10), vs. by the Philistines (2 Samuel 21:12). Read this in context very carefully. Notice who is speaking in each instance I didn't even have to go to a reference book on this one. > l)The earth does (Ecclesiastes 1:4), vs. does not (2 Peter 3:10, > Matthew 24:35) abide forever. "olam" rendred forever does not imply metaphysical absolute endless, but a period of indefinite length. These texts should be taken as referring to passing away of the present age or system of things in one context and as speaking of its durability of permanence with respect to its constituents in the other context. This again is a question of context and properly looking at all verses and facts available. > m)If Jesus bears witness of himself, his witness is true > (John 8:14), vs. is not true (John 5:31). Fuller: "The first sets forth his testimony as it was in itself; the second as it was in the account of men. Admitting their laws or rules of evidence, his testimony would not have been credible [two or three usually established the witness]; and therefore in the verses following he appeals to John the Baptist and the works which he had wrought in the Father's name" > n)Josiah died at Megiddo (2 Kings 23:29-30), vs. at Jerusalem > (2 Chronicles 35:24). A language problem. "Meth" in 2Kings can mean "dying" or "in a dying state". Explanation: He was carried off the field in a dying condition and expired in or on the way to Jerusalem. > o)Jesus led Peter, James and John up a high mountain after six > (Matthew 17:1, Mark 9:2), vs. eight (Luke 9:28) days. A book I have explained it but I didn't understand it or see anything worth saying here so...(The book is "Alleged Discrepencies of the Bible", Haley, John Baker Book House) > p)Nebuzaradan came unto Jerusalem on the 7th (2 Kings 25:8), vs. > 10th (Jeremiah 52:12) day of the fifth month. Bahr states that this is another Hebrew number mixups on the part of the copier or scribe. They look very similar in Hebrew. > q)Good works should (Matthew 5:16), vs. should not (Matthew 6:1) > be seen. > r)We must (Luke 14:26), vs. must not (1 John 3:15) hate our > brothers. A major blunder in context neglect. The glory of God is our ultimate motive in good works. We are to let them be seen so people can see the changes God has made in our lives and believe in Him. We are not to show them off to display our own talents or to flaunt. This is pride and not liked by God Please read these verses in CONTEXT before you call them contradictions, discrepencies or problems. In letter r the word hate is often used Biblically in the sense of "to love less or to have less favor". A weaker affection was referred to as hate by the Hebrews at times. Also note the context (once again) in Luke as he talks about hating one's own life. > >According to the Bible: > > 5)The earth rests on pillars (1 Samuel 2:8). > 6)The earth won't be moved (1 Chronicles 16:30). > 7)The earth has edges (Job 37:3). > 8)The earth has four corners (Isaiah 11:12, Revelations 7:1). My friend, learn to read the Bible as any other literature. You read poetry as poetry and prose as prose. And you know when a writer is using figures of speech and metaphors etc in novels, don't you? With all of the very interesting questions you have posed, this inconsistency in what seems to be a very intelligent person makes me wonder where you got this information. > 10)"...and John was baptizing in Aenon,, near Salim" (John 3:23) > there never existed such a place! Perhaps to be identified with Ainiun, Ne of Nablus (FF Bruce) [The word is based on Aramaic, "springs". Ainiun is of course the modern name. There is also a 4th Cent. tradition putting it in the N. Jordan valley, near what is now called Tell Sheikh Salim. Identifying ancient places is often a matter of guesswork. Alas, we do not have any complete atlases from the 1st Cent, so it's hard to see how it could be otherwise. --clh] > 11)"...the same came therefore to Philip, who was of Bethsaida > of Galilee, and desired him..." (John 12:21). Bethsaida is > in Gaulonitis, not Galilee. Are you referring to the modern area or as it was then? > 12)Joshua 15:21-32 tells us there were 29 cities in the South > belonging to the tribe of the people of Judah, but it then > proceeds to list 36! The first gives the remainder after the cession, the second gives the original number (Rashi, Kimchi) or scribe errors could have caused this (Keil) > 14)According to Matthew, Jesus was born before the death of Herod, > which occurred in 4 B.C. Luke contradicts him by saying he > was born during the registration under Cyrenius (that "all the > world should be taxed"), which occurred in 7 A.D. There is now strong inscriptional evidence that shows Cyrenius held the post two times - once during the time of Christ's birth. This was a favorite "discrepency" of past critics. Luke has been shown, however, to be an excellent historian. (FF Bruce "The New Testament Documents, Are They Re- liable") > > All these contradictions make me ask: how reliable a scripture >is the Bible? Christians use the Bible to demonstrate that they posess >the truth, and they cite the Resurrection of Jesus as "proof" that their >religion is somehow superior to others. These are not necessarily contradictions. All have reasonable explanations that put to rest critical claims. If the Bible is reliable, then we are confronted with a risen Christ. He it the only religious leader to raise himself from the dead. No one has performed the miracles he has. No one as ever claimed to be God and then given evidence in abundance for his claim. No one, according to him, can save a person from their own rebellion. No one is like him. You see, it isn't a question of our "religion" being superior, but it is a matter of the *person* of Jesus Christ being superior. [The concluding portion of Vasu's original was put here, but I am omitting it. --clh] Thank YOU for some stimulating questions! I look forward to your next set. > >"To believe in immortality, > one needs something more than > the gloomy doctrine of Resurrection." > > ---Thomas Paine Unless it is not gloomy at all. Larry.