christian@topaz.UUCP (04/07/87)
The other night I was coming home on the bus, and there were a couple
of teenage girls sitting behind me, talking about this and that.
Their discussion turned to the subject of friends of theirs who had had
babies, and were married, and how it had changed them, and so on. It
didn't sound to me like they thought it was such a bad thing.
I have known women in their mid to late twenties who had had
children when in their teenage years, and I know how badly it screwed
up their lives. Never being one who was smart enough to keep his mouth
shut, I turned around and said "It has always seemed to me that that
was a real tragedy", and turned back around. A young lady (about my
age, 33) sitting next to me said to me "I agree with you, but what
do you base that on?"
My response was "Pure pragmatism. It isn't based on anything religious,
I'm an atheist."
Two responses immediately: From the young woman "Why are you an atheist?",
from one of the teenagers "What is an atheist?"
My answers, respectively, were "That is an evening's discussion." and
"An atheist believes that there are no gods."
The subsequent discussion with the young lady followed typical paths, which
you have all heard before, and it wasn't particularly extraordinary. However,
the subsequent discussion with the teenager (which came first) was
very startling, to both of us I think.
Teenager: "Where do you think you come from?"
Me: "Where do YOU come from?"
[quick timeout while she consulted with her friends, and I exchanged a couple
of comments with the young woman. I overheard words like "sperm" and "egg".]
Teenager: "You mean, you just think you come from your parents? Where did
they come from?"
Me: "Same place."
Teenager: "All the way back to Adam and Eve, in the Bible?"
Me: [Desperately wanting to avoid mentioning the word "Evolution"] "I
don't believe in the Bible."
Teenager: "Where do you go when you die?"
Me: "When I die, I'm dead. I don't believe in souls, either."
[At this point, the young woman said something like "That seems like a
pretty hopeless world-view." and my answer was something like "It
depends on your point of view - I prefer to work to make this world
better than to live for some hypothetical bliss in another life." which
brought a comment like "That's not what it is like for a Christian at all!"
and so on. You have all heard it before.]
Teenager: [Stunned silence, then mutter of "I don't understand this."]
Then it was her stop, and she got off. My subsequent discussion with
the young woman followed well-worn paths, and was totally unremarkable.
Understand that all this is from memory a few days later, so I am probably
coming off as more witty and erudite than I actually was.
Here's the final kicker: Where did this take place? Birmingham AL? Iowa?
5 miles from Jerry Falwell's home? No, it took place in Cambridge, MA,
about 5 miles from Harvard University - one of the most liberal and
purportedly well-educated places in the US.
Now, there are many aspects of this which could spawn endless discussions
here, and let's not get into them:
Let's not discuss the morality of teen-age pregnancy.
Let's not discuss why I am an atheist.
Let's not discuss whether atheism is a religion.
Instead, to me the most striking and disturbing aspect of this was the
fact that the teenager didn't know what an atheist was. I admire her
faith (in whatever faith it was - she never said.)
Understand: I am not criticizing her faith, nor am I decrying her keeping
it. I don't think she should become an atheist. Instead, I wonder
seriously why it is the only faith she knows anything about.
In 'On Liberty', John Stuart Mill argues that any belief should be
exercised vigorously by seeking out someone who holds a conflicting
belief. Whether anyone gets convinced or not (experience suggests
an overwhelming tendency for no-one to change their mind) the act
of defending a belief causes you to understand it. Mill contends that
without this, the belief becomes dogma, and the belief system rots
from within.
This is one of the reasons that I think the Mormon "mission" is a good
thing for the faith - when the men come out of it, they truly understand
WHY they are Mormons. (It makes them grow in other ways, too - let's not
discuss THIS either.) This particular teenager would have an extremely
difficult time seeking out any non-believers, because evidence suggests
that she isn't even aware that they exist!
Therefore, my question, which I submit for reasoned debate: (FINALLY,
something you can debate!) Should Christian churches teach knowledge
about other faiths in Sunday school?
Yet another subject to NOT get into: I am not interested in whether the
PUBLIC schools should teach knowledge of many faiths.
I contend that the churches should do so. A good Christian should grow
up understanding that there are other faiths besides their own (though
the other faiths may be misguided and/or wrong) and should have at
least some knowledge of where those faiths came from. Inevitably such
knowledge will be slanted - I think this is acceptable.
But I think there is something scandalous when a 17-year-old doesn't
even know what an atheist is. She had been taught that the Bible was
true (OK, I accept the right of her parents/teachers to tell her that)
and that EVERYONE ELSE believe it (WRONG!). Thus from her point of
view, I was someone who knew about the Bible but disagreed with it
for no good reason. Logically, therefore, I was either evil, or perverse,
or stupid. Based on this, it was reasonable for her to be perplexed.
How can anyone believe in the Bible and be an atheist at the same time?
Whether you agree with her or not, I don't consider myself to be any
of the three. Perhaps I am misguided - that is for the future to divulge
(and not this news group, PLEASE!). Had she understood a bit more of
the world outside her religion, she wouldn't have been so shocked by her
encounter with me.
More important: Hypothesize that I AM evil AND perverse AND stupid,
and am part of some cult which she doesn't know about. If I wanted her,
her ignorance makes her vulnerable to my attempts to convert her into
my cult, with negative consequences for everyone except the rich guru
on the top of the pyramid. If she knew about me before encountering
me, then she would be better equipped to defend herself against my
attempts to convert her.
I have reasons why I think it would be better for the U.S. were the
churches to teach about other religions, but
I am deliberately trying to demonstrate that it would be better for
Christianity itself. I was raised Christian, and the only other
religion that we were taught about was Judaism (for obvious reasons,
since the Old Testament is rather difficult to understand without
the Jews...). I have always thought that the reason that the Methodists,
at least, didn't show us any other sides of the issue was that their
side was too shakey - if we saw opposing arguments we might leave the
faith. (In my case, that is in fact precisely what happened, only it
happened to me in college. However, I know other people exposed to
exactly the same information who became even more fervent in their
faith - ONCE THEY UNDERSTOOD IT!)
Are the Christian leaders so insecure about their faith that they
fear to let their children see the opposite viewpoint? If not that,
then why do they not teach about them as I propose? I suspect the
reason is actually: "We have the real truth here, and it won't
change - so there isn't any point in teaching the other viewpoints."
If indeed this is the real point, then the religion has ALREADY
become dogma.
Steven Den Beste
sdenbeste@cc5.bbn.com ARPA
[I hope that this experience was not representative of the products of
our Sunday Schools. I can't speak for every possible church,
but the official Sunday School material in the churches I have been
involved in (Methodist and Presbyterian) attempt to give kids a
feel for the variety of cultures and religions in the world. There
are several problems with this:
- often kids stop going to Sunday School at about the age where
they are ready to think critically. This means that they haven't
run into the more critical part of the curriculum yet.
- the teachers are generally untrained. They may not feel
comfortable in dealing with viewpoints other than the ones
they know. Thus this material may tend to get skipped.
- it is no easier to get kids to think about alternatives to
long-held beliefs than anyone else. Sunday School suffers
the additional disadvantage that it looks like a school, but
doesn't give tests. With a generation of kids that only take
something seriously if it is going to appear on an exam, this
presents certain problems. (I say this as a long-time college
teacher. "Professor, is this going to be on the exam?")
--clh]christian@topaz.UUCP (04/15/87)
In article <10785@topaz.RUTGERS.EDU> sdenbeste@bbncc5.uucp writes: >Instead, to me the most striking and disturbing aspect of this was the >fact that the teenager didn't know what an atheist was. I admire her >faith (in whatever faith it was - she never said.) Why is this so disturbing? I agree that it is a sad thing that a certain Christian has no knowledge of someone else's belief, but why is this more disturbing than an atheist not knowing what a Christian is. The more atheists I talk to the more of them I find screwed up in what they think Christianity is all about-- is this not just as bad? You might consider the young girl to be uneducated, in my opinion this is terribly arrogant, when most people who don't believe in God are completely in the dark about what He is all about. That is the real tunnel vision. >Therefore, my question, which I submit for reasoned debate: (FINALLY, >something you can debate!) Should Christian churches teach knowledge >about other faiths in Sunday school? The answer is yes in my opinion. I belong to a church that makes it policy to give as much information as possible about other world views and how they conflict with Christianity. We have entire classes devoted to the subject and we also stress learning about other beliefs (as well as many other things concerning Christianity) through personal discipleship. >I contend that the churches should do so. A good Christian should grow >up understanding that there are other faiths besides their own (though >the other faiths may be misguided and/or wrong) and should have at >least some knowledge of where those faiths came from. Inevitably such >knowledge will be slanted - I think this is acceptable. I wholeheartedly agree with you here, exept perhaps that the knowledge should be slanted. I believe it is better to go straight to the source for the view and also to be as truthful and accurate as possible. I think it is ok to attack the weak points of the view, but I don't think the view should be presented in a slanted way (if by slanted you meant selective or degrading). >But I think there is something scandalous when a 17-year-old doesn't >even know what an atheist is. She had been taught that the Bible was >true (OK, I accept the right of her parents/teachers to tell her that) >and that EVERYONE ELSE believe it (WRONG!). Thus from her point of >view, I was someone who knew about the Bible but disagreed with it >for no good reason. Logically, therefore, I was either evil, or perverse, >or stupid. Based on this, it was reasonable for her to be perplexed. >How can anyone believe in the Bible and be an atheist at the same time? Like I said before, it might be scandalous for the girl to be ignorant of atheism, but it is just as scandalous for the atheist to say he does not believe in God when he does not even know anything about God or the bible. This is the way I was. I was an atheist who thought I had a good reason not to believe in God and I thought that Christianity was a bunch of rules and laws and that is was boring and a crutch. When I found a Christian church (a group of people not a building) I discovered to my surprise that the bible was not a book of laws but a book of forgiveness. The bible told me that God loved me and died for me and that I could have a free gift of salvation that I could never lose no matter what I did. This I found to be quite the opposite of what I believed Christianity was. And it seems to me that most people do not understand this. Most atheists I talk to believe that Christians are trying to be good in order to get to heaven (and usually self-righteously at that). Nothing could be further from the truth. Epesians 2:8-9 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. You told that girl that you do not believe in the bible. Have you read it enough to know what it says? Have you looked at Christ's life and message closely to see if it is false? Try reading John 3 (the whole chapter) and then see what you think. ________________________________________________________________________ | Kerr Gibson, Department of Computer and Information Science | | The Ohio State University; 2036 Neil Ave. Columbus OH USA 43210-1277 | | gibson@ohio-state.{arpa,csnet} or ...!cb{osgd,att}!osu-eddie!gibson | | (614) 292 - 0915 | | | | Disclaimer: The above opinions are probably wrong. If you want the | | truth, ask God. | ________________________________________________________________________
christian@topaz.UUCP (04/15/87)
[This article quotes from an original which describes a teenager who doesn't know what "atheist" means. --clh] Steven, I applaud your open-minded stance concerning the idea of having "Tunnel Vision". Your respect for those who have "faith" (whether they question it or not) is admirable. Moreover, I like your statements from J. S. Mills. I, too, had a similar experience with someone of a different faith. Having been raised a Catholic, I was rarely exposed to people with opinions very different than mine. I never meet an atheist nor even a non-christian, for that matter. My "Christian" faith was based on years of ritual church attendence to please MOM & DAD and because I was ignorant of other beliefs (faiths). I was never challenged. To make a long story short ... a young lady opened my eyes to the variety of beliefs and the hipocracy of organized religion. She basically ask me "Why do you believe what you believe?" Needless to say, this was a SHOCK to my system. I didn't have an answer on which to stand. How could I argue "faith" in God and Jesus Christ when I didn't know why I even beleived in them. The best answer I had to offer was, "MOM & DAD, priests, teachers ... said I should beleive." I've since begun to question why I believe as I do; and what and why do other believe .... I think God enjoys being questioned. Thanks for the opinion and I hope your days ARE filled with love and bliss. Bruce E. Weimer (sorry, I don't know my UNIX address) [lzaz!bew seems to work from here --clh]
christian@topaz.UUCP (04/15/87)
It's not that we Christians try to exclude teaching our kids about atheism or other religions on a deliberate basis. It's just that our culture has become so specialized that this type of thinking has permeated into our teaching of religious belief. I just don't have the time to teach much of the alternatives just like a college doesn't try to teach much of the non-degree related course work anymore. As for Sunday schools, I think you are right that most of the children's level teachers are not equipped. Some of the adult elective courses do deal with other religions. I became a Christian in my thirties, and learned the intellectual groundwork gradually after a step of faith. I know of some friends who have done this in the reverse order, first studying the evidence thoroughly. I let you know this just for background of what I have personally experienced.