rcj@burl.ATT.COM (Curtis Jackson) (10/13/86)
In article <305@joevax.UUCP> dnelson@joevax.UUCP (Dorothy Nelson) writes: >> but unfortunately no matter where I travel that is all I find. >> No it is not just me, anybody I know that has a girlfriend doesn't >> treat them like they deserve and yet they still stay with him. >> Perplexing eh ? >Here's the phenomenon as I see it. There's a very healthy reaction >humans have called, "Picking partners who feel good about themselves." >Feeling good about yourself has classicly been interpreted as not giving >a shit for anyone else. (NOTE to would-be flamers... I don't like this >attitude). >The indifferent male has always been presented as a romantic figure whereas >the male who cares is a foot licking woos who has dinner at Mama's on >Fridays. Similarly, the "hard to get" female is the most luscious, whereas >the female who is nice is portrayed as a clinging vine. Binary modes, pure >and simple. Some of this is hard-wired already in our brains-- and it's >difficult to extract it. Hear, hear, Ms. Muffin! I included this for reference later - read on! >> I guess this is where the saying "Nice guys finish last." came >> from. OK, time to step in with the old "before and after" story. Really until about two years ago or so, I was what Laura Creighton likes to call a puppy dog. I was the epitome of the nice guy. All the girls liked me. They liked talking to me, they liked doing some other things as well. They never stayed for very long. Here I was, being as nice as I could, and they didn't appreciate me. How often I quoted the old "finish last" line! Then, two of them, both of whom I really respect, and at two times three years apart, told me that they loved me but I wasn't a real person. They felt that I was living my life for them, and they didn't like that. They wanted the person they met (when I was being as dashing as I knew how and all that courtship stuff that really shouldn't die; just mellow a little). They wanted someone who was nice but who didn't always put them before himself. They wanted a real person! How dare they!? ;-) So, I decided that I was basically a nice guy and I didn't want to change that, but that "it's a short enough ride as it is" and I should be living for me and *sharing* that with someone else. I went into seclusion for about eight months after my last SO left and got my shit together by myself. I then tentatively stepped back into the dating world. Well, as Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise, Surprise!" I have several lady friends, I have a great time with them all, I think they have a good time with me, and most of all I feel good! I had no idea all the stuff I'd been repressing to be so nice to ladies at the expense of my own self! I feel so at ease now; I like *me* for what I am, and the part of me that can be good for someone else is just a part of me I'm glad of now, no longer my raison d'etre. To answer your original question, I think that a lot of women these days are so fed up with the Alan Alda syndrome, and so tired of looking for men who aren't either total assholes (really bad) or already married to their upwardly mobile 80's careers to the exclusion of all else; especially to the exclusion of being real with themselves about who they really are. So they stick with the guys who, as someone I know said about someone else today, "sometimes have the sensitivity of a small soap dish." They stick with them because these guys are real people (not puppy dogs) and they are not complete assholes. A lot of these women could do a lot better, but it seems that (just like a lot of men) they give up the search because it can be a long and painful one. Better the slight pain you know than the unknown pain, and all that stuff. >I'm curious, if you've traveled extensively, why you *haven't* gotten an >opinion from a woman about this. Very strange. I agree with Dorothy -- talk to your female friends. You might be surprised at how much they'll open up to a man who really cares enough to find these things out. >Men. Can't live with them, can't shoot them in the back of the neck and >have a talented taxidermist stuff the pe... wait a minnit... I *can* do >that, can't I? (*MOO* *HA* *HA*) > >Scuse me. I'm off to buy me a Luger. ;-) Hmmmm. Better keep a low profile when I'm in NJ -- I might run into this sex-crazed lunatic; much to my chagrin! What? The MAD Programmer hiding from a sex-crazed woman? Well, as my Daddy said to me once (he really did, too): "Boy, stay away from them what takes trophies...." -- The MAD Programmer -- 919-228-3313 (Cornet 291) alias: Curtis Jackson ...![ ihnp4 ulysses cbosgd allegra ]!burl!rcj ...![ ihnp4 cbosgd akgua watmath ]!clyde!rcj
ooblick@mit-eddie.MIT.EDU (Mikki Barry) (10/13/86)
In article <1506@burl.ATT.COM> rcj@burl.UUCP (Curtis Jackson) writes: >OK, time to step in with the old "before and after" story. Really until >about two years ago or so, I was what Laura Creighton likes to call a >puppy dog. I was the epitome of the nice guy. All the girls liked me. >They liked talking to me, they liked doing some other things as well. > >They never stayed for very long. One of the interesting things to point out here is that I truly believe that people look for SO's who are at least as strong as they are. It is a "change of pace" to have a "puppy dog" around for awhile, but it gets quite old after awhile to have someone you cannot lean on, someone you may or may not be able to depend on, someone whining at your door or your heels, whimpering at you, etc. etc. Yes, I have gone out with some of these puppy dogs, and it gets far too tiring to take care of yourself and take care of the puppy. Especially those trips to the vet...:-) >Then, two of them, both of whom I really respect, and at two times >three years apart, told me that they loved me but I wasn't a real person. >They felt that I was living my life for them, and they didn't like that. >They wanted the person they met (when I was being as dashing as I knew >how and all that courtship stuff that really shouldn't die; just mellow >a little). They wanted someone who was nice but who didn't always put them >before himself. They wanted a real person! How dare they!? ;-) I think that the old maxim "you must learn to love yourself before you anyone else will love you" is quite true. How can one who thinks nothing of him/herself really love, or be loved by others? I know that I get REAL tired of listening to people downplay themselves, especially when most of the time it's simply to get attention, and/or dig for compliments. And if try to tell them different, and they aren't really a dweeb, they don't believe you, so what's the use? >So, I decided that I was basically a nice guy and I didn't want to change >that, but that "it's a short enough ride as it is" and I should be living >for me and *sharing* that with someone else. I went into seclusion for >about eight months after my last SO left and got my shit together by myself. The really sad part about this is that while Curtis got his shit together (which takes a certain amount of strength, resolve and guts), there are many more puppies that won't even take the responsibility for being able to change their lives by themselves. It is far easier for them to believe they can't, than to think maybe they can and attempt this seemingly impossible feat. So they withdraw into themselves and look for sympathy from those who have been trying to tell them they can change. I have known MANY men like this, and they would rather feel sorry for themselves and attempt to make others feel sorry for/with them than attempt to feel good about themselves. >I then tentatively stepped back into the dating world. Well, as Gomer Pyle >would say, "Surprise, Surprise!" I have several lady friends, I have a >great time with them all, I think they have a good time with me, and most >of all I feel good! I had no idea all the stuff I'd been repressing to >be so nice to ladies at the expense of my own self! I feel so at ease now; >I like *me* for what I am, and the part of me that can be good for someone >else is just a part of me I'm glad of now, no longer my raison d'etre. And it isn't just *MEN* that go through this syndrome. In the "stone ages" of my life, I was a doormat too. I was also intensely unhappy with my life, depressed most of the time, couldnt' find a boyfriend, etc. So I also went into a kind of seclusion (went to school in England with a new group of people who didn't know I was a wimp, and I could experiment with non- wimpdom without prejudice) and upon my return to "uncivilization", the change was dramatic. I found *MEN*, a better job, etc. I am now quite happy with my life (ta da!) and owe it all to the concept of "stand up for yourself". >To answer your original question, I think that a lot of women these days >are so fed up with the Alan Alda syndrome, and so tired of looking for >men who aren't either total assholes (really bad) or already married to >their upwardly mobile 80's careers to the exclusion of all else; especially >to the exclusion of being real with themselves about who they really are. >So they stick with the guys who, as someone I know said about someone else >today, "sometimes have the sensitivity of a small soap dish." They stick >with them because these guys are real people (not puppy dogs) and they >are not complete assholes. A lot of these women could do a lot better, but >it seems that (just like a lot of men) they give up the search because it >can be a long and painful one. Better the slight pain you know than the >unknown pain, and all that stuff. Unfortunately true. But many people get offended when you tell them they can change some of the parts of their lives that they are unhappy with. There are plenty of "nice guys" in the world, and plenty of "real men". But don't let anyone tell you you can't have a combination of both! Mikki Barry