manis@ubc-cs.UUCP (Vincent Manis) (09/16/86)
In article <349@ozdaltx.UUCP> root@ozdaltx.UUCP (root) writes: >I've been watching with interest over the past weeks some of the comments >you guys have made, and even tossed my 2 cents worth in a few times. > >I am truly in the dark about something... >Since, from your postings, I assume that you three are Jewish. My question >is, do you _really_ experience that much discrimition just because of your >faith/heritage? > OR >do you think it may be a combination of gayness-background? Considering that Daniel isn't gay, I doubt that any discrimination to which he is subjected is gay-based. AD HOMINEM MODE ON... Perhaps many gay motss'ers were as disturbed by Daniel's initial naivete as was I. At that time, he gave no evidence of understanding why non-gays (especially men) might be unwelcome in gay bars. Now Scotty (who is gay but not Jewish) questions whether there is really any discrimination against Jews. Perhaps you have to experience something personally before you believe it exists. END AD HOMINEM MODE Yes, there is still a fair bit of anti-Semitism in the world. In Canada, we have a small but dedicated coterie of "Hitler was right" people (of whom Ernst Zundel made continent-wide newscasts during his trial on hate propaganda). Entering Canada from the U.S. is the Aryan Nations Church (more or less interchangeable with Posse Comitatus, an Idaho-based fascist group). On a personal level, most Jewish people are accustomed to seeing swastika graffiti, and there are certainly employers who prefer not to hire Jewish people. The washrooms in our university have a lot more "Kill Chinks" and "Death to Paki[stani]s" than "Death to Jews", but I have seen the latter. To put it another way, much anti-semitism is latent, waiting for the right climate to burst forth. On the other hand, never forget Bailey Smith (moderator (?) of the Southern Baptist Church in 1980), who said that God doesn't listen to the prayers of Jews.
his@faron.UUCP (Howard Irwin Solomon) (09/18/86)
Scotty writes, > In article <795@ptsfb.UUCP>, rob@ptsfb.UUCP (Rob Bernardo) writes: > > > > Over the past week, Daniel Klein, Howard Solomon and I have been engaged > .......... > > Well, you know, put three Jews on the net and you get four opinions. > > :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) > > (That's a take off on an Israeli joke. Oh, oh! I can feel the > > "jewish self-hatred" flames coming!) > ............ > > I've been watching with interest over the past weeks some of the comments > you guys have made, and even tossed my 2 cents worth in a few times. > > I am truly in the dark about something... > Since, from your postings, I assume that you three are Jewish. My question > is, do you _really_ experience that much discrimition just because of your > faith/heritage? > OR > do you think it may be a combination of gayness-background? > Scotty- For me, it is more of historical and world importance than specifically relevant to me. My father, however, has told me many stories of growing up in New York (Brooklyn, with more Jews than Israel, of all places) and getting beaten up for being the "Jew-boy". My father is 55, so we are talking roughly 1945 or so. My uncle, who is a few years younger than my father, talks about job discrimination in the chemical engineering industry well into the 60's and possibly 70's against Jews. I am sure that this is not an isolated incident. Also, for many years, the prestigious colleges had quotas for Jewish students in the single digits. Considering the number of colleges today with Jewish populations over 30% (brandeis-60, Brown-~30,Penn-~40,Cornell-~30, etc. -- I am not sure of these numbers, but I can guarantee they are not too high by more than a few %age points, if at all). That is not too long ago, and history has an uncanny way of repeating itself. Just take a look around the world. Khadafy in Libya, the entire Soviet social order, the election of Waldheim in Austria, the modern Nazis and KKK's, etc., ad nauseum... As one example, take Waldheim. I will admit that the details of his past are not yet proven. However, when the rumors surfaced about his possible Nazi past, his popularity soared! This is a disgraceful show of humanity in this day and age. Let's look a little closer to home. I have spoken before about my complaints with the system of holidays in this country. Christmas and Easter are national holidays (to the best of my understanding, at least everything is closed on these days). Jewish children are told time and time again about Christ, the Christian holidays, and traditions. How many of you out there even know what two Jewish holidays are coming up next month? In High School, a marching band director gave the Jewish children an argument for refusing to perform at a football game on Yom Kippur, the most solemn day of the year! Isn't that a disgrace? Just yesterday, I had an interesting experience at the local Gay Men's chorus rehearsal. Our director had planned a chorus retreat on Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year. When told it was a problem, he searched for other dates. He asked about the following Sunday which is Yom Kippur. When told that that day wasalso a holiday, he said, "Oh, that's right. It's Colombus Day." I was stunned. Now, our director is not prejudiced, just uninformed. He came up to me at a bar later that night and apologized, assuming that I was annoyed. I told him that the problem rests more with society than him, but that a little research might not be a bad idea. Also, see the previuos post about Brandeis and non-Jewish mothers for another example. > Being born and reared in The Uniter States of TEXAS ;-). I can understand > descrimition when aimed at blacks or Mexicans. Because of the culture > differences. But, I am curious if this anti-Semitic (sp?) feeling > is localized to the East and West coasts. I have many Jewish friends > and never really think of them as any different from anyone else, > personally, I find the holidays and traditions facinating. > Funny, I always assumed that the further you got from the coasts, the worse anti-Semitism got. Remember the problems in Skoakie, Illinois? As a general rule, I understand that the South is fairly bad as well. These impressions are just from occasional visits and talking with friends. I have always lived on the East coast (in order, NY, NJ, MA). > Just wondering out loud..... > It is nice to see someone wonder. Perhaps if more did, these problems would not exist. BTW, I think this stuff is relevant here because (in addition to the fact that it is generally important) lack of knowledge about gays is the major problem the gay community faces. i think the two situatios are more similar than many realize. Just remember. Discrimination goes nowhere unless it's fashionable in some part of society. Jewish discrimination is not as fashionable as it once was, but it does seem to be on the rise again. During the early 80's, there was a major rash of synagogue desecrations, the likes of which haven't been seen in years. Besides, with the surge of the religious right, who knows what may be lurking behind that close door known as the future. > > Scotty > ...ihnp4!killer!ozdaltx!root > If you (or anyone else for that matter) want to discuss this further, send me mail. I have a tendency to talk forever so will consciously stop here for now. Howard
mgdlin@beryl.berkeley.edu (Gary D. Lindsay) (09/19/86)
In article <648@faron.UUCP> his@faron.UUCP (Howard Irwin Solomon) writes: > >.... I just >don't feel my sexual orientation is always relevant. I am a very private >person and I wonder why it should be anyone's business at work who I sleep >with. You're right Howard, it is no one's business who you sleep with. But being Gay is more than genitalia. If you wouldn't deny your Jewishness (I don't know whether the cultural or religious part is most important for you, but either is as valid a part of your being as your sexual orientation.), then why should you deny your sexual orientation. >I have a lover of almost two years and I prefer to ogle blondes but tend to >date brunettes. (Etc, etc.......) (Those of you who want a full bio can write >me ... :-) So, why shouldn't you talk as sordidly as males in the 90% minority? If you come to California, let's go to Castro and leer at the boys. :-) >I find this a tacky way to talk to someone if we happened to be talking about >an unrelated topic. But let's hear it for tack. :-) Gary