[soc.motss] Genetics vs. environment in being gay

root@ozdaltx.UUCP (root) (09/20/86)

In article <109@sbstaff2.UUCP>, faunt@sbstaff2.UUCP (Jim Fauntleroy) writes:
>      I too know twin brothers only one of whom is gay.  This caused a few
> odd moments before I realized he was twins.
......
> which found that gay men were more likely to have a gay brother than straight
> men.
.....
I know it's Saturday and my brain quit functioning yesterday, but am I
interpreting correctly the above statement as; 
	In families with 2 or more male children, if one of the children
	is Gay, then the odds are greater that the other(s) will be
	also (gay).

I can only recall knowing one set of gay twins, While in the Navy in
Kingsville, Tx, there were these two fellows. They called themselves,
'White Russians'. I think their family came from Southern Russia.
HUBBA-HUBBA! they were real hunks. Also, for what ever it's worth,
they WERE NOT identical in all ways, either. ;-)

On the other side on the coin, anyone venture any stats on incidents
of Gay fathers/gay sons? or Gay parents/gay children?

Scotty
...ihnp4!killer!ozdaltx!root

"Oh, my friend, it's not what they take away from you that counts-
 It's what you do with what you have left." - Hubert Humphrey

francis@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Joseph Francis) (09/30/86)

Organization : California Institute of Technology
Keywords: 

In article <109@sbstaff2.UUCP> faunt@sbstaff2.UUCP (Jim Fauntleroy) writes:
>> I have a gay friend whose identical twin brother is straight.
>> ...
>     As for citations of studies, there was a news note in the Gay Community
>Boston University School of Medicine, and the principal investigator was
>Richard Pillard.
> ...

A friend of mine works in this area (with Richard Pillard I believe).
James Weinrich, of Boston University School of Medicine, family studies 
or something like that. 
I can't remember the study (I have copies somewhere) but if you are gay,
they you are k times more likely to have a gay brother than if you are 
straight, etc. and same (somewhat smaller k) for lesbians.  The study 
implied heritability of homosexuality on the same order as something like
alcoholism or schizophrenia (no pejorative association though).  
See E.O. Wilson on the subject, too (If you believe in sociobiology, clap
your hands! (re: New York Review of books, latest issue) 
(Nice to talk to everyone again)


-- 
J o e  J o e        (francis@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!francis) 

rb@cci632.UUCP (Rex Ballard) (10/06/86)

In article <999@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> francis@cit-vax.UUCP (Joseph Francis) writes:
>Organization : California Institute of Technology
>Keywords: 
>
>In article <109@sbstaff2.UUCP> faunt@sbstaff2.UUCP (Jim Fauntleroy) writes:
>>> I have a gay friend whose identical twin brother is straight.
>>> ...
>>     As for citations of studies, there was a news note in the Gay Community
>>Boston University School of Medicine, and the principal investigator was
>>Richard Pillard.
>> ...
>
>A friend of mine works in this area (with Richard Pillard I believe).
>James Weinrich, of Boston University School of Medicine, family studies 
>or something like that. 
>I can't remember the study (I have copies somewhere) but if you are gay,
>they you are k times more likely to have a gay brother than if you are 
>straight, etc. and same (somewhat smaller k) for lesbians.
>The study 
>implied heritability of homosexuality on the same order as something like
>alcoholism or schizophrenia (no pejorative association though).  
>See E.O. Wilson on the subject, too (If you believe in sociobiology, clap
>your hands! (re: New York Review of books, latest issue) 
>J o e  J o e        (francis@csvax.caltech.edu || ...seismo!cit-vax!francis) 

As I understood it, there were some correlations between "left brain"
effeminate characteristics and pre-natal stress, but that sexual preferences
were established before one had the verbal skills to express them.  As
early as 18 months.

While it is possible for two identical twins to have different sexual
preferences, it is less likely that one would be "butch" and the other
"nell".

Studies of men born in concentration camps indicated that nearly 80%
had more "feminine" psychological patterns and neurological brain
development.  Similar percentages of women treated for depression while
pregnant, pre-natal trauma, and other "high stress" conditions were
also found.  Homosexuality however was not that much more common.
What difference may have been noticed may have been people who had
only slightly stronger preferences for women, but found the ability
to attract men sufficient to outweigh any natural preferences.

While there might be a higher likelyhood that men with these feminine
patterns might be more likely to prefer men to women, there is an
equally high chance that they would admire feminine characteristics
in others, with a preference toward women.

The same is true with men who have more masculine neurology.  Though
they might be more likely to prefer women, they might be attracted
to masculine characterstics, with a preference toward women.

For various reasons, effeminate behaviour is often associated with
homosexuality.  Just as not all gays are effeminate, not all effeminate
men are gay.

The "stress factor" is actually measurable, biologically based, and
easily provable.  It appears that testosterone levels are significantly
lower during the critical time (3-4 months?) that sexual characteristics
are established, than for non-stressed "butch" infants.

If the testosterone levels are low enough, the result will be transexual
characteristics that can be quite profound, in spite of the presence of
the male chromosome.  There are even cases on record of children being
born as women in spite of the male chromosome.

In some cases, the genetic programming may be sufficient to overcome
the adverse effects, usually during puberty.  This is usually after
the sexual preferences occur, and too late to compensate for the
different neurology.

nazgul@apollo.uucp (Kee Hinckley) (10/08/86)

In article <999@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu> francis@cit-vax.UUCP (Joseph Francis) writes:
> I can't remember the study (I have copies somewhere) but if you are gay,
> they you are k times more likely to have a gay brother than if you are 
> straight, etc. and same (somewhat smaller k) for lesbians.  The study 
> implied heritability of homosexuality on the same order as something like
> alcoholism or schizophrenia (no pejorative association though).  

The thing to remember with such studies is not to jump to the conclusion
that a correlation implies that the attribute is inherited.  Unless the
study involved siblings who were separated at birth (and ideally, with
a control group of unrelated children who were also separated from
their parents at birth) (can you find your copy?) you still have no proof 
as to whether the trait is inherited or socially acquired.  It doesn't 
suprise me at all to hear that there is a correlation - what I'd really 
like to see is a definitive study of *why* there is a correlation.
--
                                                      -kee

        ...{mit-erl,mit-eddie,yale,uw-beaver,decvax!wanginst}!apollo!nazgul
               Apollo Computer, Chelmsford MA.  (617) 256-6600 x7587
                   or 499B Boston Rd, Groton MA. (617) 448-2863

I'm not sure which upsets me more; that people are so unwilling to accept
responsibility for their own actions, or that they are so eager to regulate
everyone else's.