harish@ece.orst.edu (Harish Pillay) (10/18/89)
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CALL FOR VOTES
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For the creation of soc.culture.asean (unmoderated)
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This is the first call for votes for the creation of "soc.culture.asean".
The following countries are members of ASEAN:
Brunei, Indonesia, Malaysia, The Philippines, Singapore and Thailand.
The intent of the newsgroup will be to discuss the culture and customs of
the nations mentioned above.
During the discussion period, various comments/objections were made as
far as the suggested name is concerned. Some suggested that it should
be made broad enough to include Burma (Myanmar) and the three Indochinese
states of Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam.
The following alternatives were suggested:
soc.culture.se-asia as one umbrella newsgroup or
soc.culture.se-asia.asean and
soc.culture.se-asia.indochina as two newsgroups to placate
the original nay-sayers.
One of the original motivations for this suggestion was to provide yet
another avenue for discussion amongst the citizenry of ASEAN their culture,
customs and such. This newsgroup will complement various mailing lists
that are currently maintained.
It has been decided that the original name will be adhered to for the
following reasons:
a) Creating the umbrella newsgroup will potentially give rise to
postings that are political vis-a-vis squabbles between Vietnam
and ASEAN.
b) The second proposal is being too specific and, honestly, a little
hair-splitting exercise.
The peoples from the six ASEAN states exhibit a unity in the face of
diversity. To them, ASEAN has been a vehicle through which they've
achieved greater cultural understanding and exchanges and even prodded
their respective economies to flourish.
The voting period will be from midnight October 18th (PDT) until midnight
November 17th (PST). Only votes that arrive on the vote-taker's machine
during this interval will be counted.
To vote, send e-mail to:
UUCP: uunet!ece.orst.edu!harish
Internet: harish@ece.orst.edu
State explicitly your VOTE in the subject line. I will attempt to
individually acknowledge all votes and will post, during the voting period,
a rolling update on how the voting is progressing. That will also serve as
mass acknowledgement of votes received.
Remember ONLY votes MAILED to me will count and that votes MUST be explicit.
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Harish Pillay Internet: harish@ece.orst.edu
Electrical and Computer Engineering UUCP: uunet!ece.orst.edu!harish
Oregon State University MaBell: 503-758-1389 (home)
Corvallis, Oregon 97331 503-737-2554 (office)
United States of America
======== 'Give a man a fish, and he'll starve for life, ========
======== Show him how to fish, and he'll feed himself for life.' ========
---------------------------------------------------------------------------rkr@cs.washington.edu (R. K. Raj) (10/23/89)
I normally believe in the principle of "live and let live," but since nothing has been done to address the issue of name, I will take this opportunity to request people to vote NO to the group under its present name, soc.culture.asean. Two of the reasons are: (a) nearly all the original objectives of this newsgroup were POLITICAL in nature, and definitely not SOCIAL nor CULTURAL. I invite Harish Pillay, the prime mover of this newsgroup, to repost his original message. I would have done this but my site has unfortunately removed the old message. (b) During the discussion period, several folks have observed their dissatisfaction with the name for geographical reasons -- the name, soc.culture.asean, does not address these reasons adequately. Note that my opposition is to the newsgroup under the proposed name, soc.culture.asean. In short, for these reasons and others, please vote against this name by sending a message, with Subject: NO TO SOC.CULTURE.ASEAN to Harish Pillay, whose mail addresses are: Internet: harish@ece.orst.edu UUCP: uunet!ece.orst.edu!harish - R. K. Raj
the@cs.utexas.edu (Khe-Sing The) (10/27/89)
In article <9553@june.cs.washington.edu> rkr@june.cs.washington.edu (R. K. Raj) writes: >I normally believe in the principle of "live and let live," but since >nothing has been done to address the issue of name, I will take this >opportunity to request people to vote NO to the group under its present >name, soc.culture.asean. I, on the contrary, urge you all to vote YES to the proposed newsgroup. Look at the following reasons: > (a) nearly all the original objectives of this newsgroup were >POLITICAL in nature, and definitely not SOCIAL nor CULTURAL. First, I doubt whether the original objectives were political in nature. Second, even if the original objectives were political, that is not necessary the current objective of the proposed newsgroup. > (b) During the discussion period, several folks have observed their >dissatisfaction with the name for geographical reasons -- the name, >soc.culture.asean, does not address these reasons adequately. No one came up with a better name. Besides, the opponents were either (i) ignorant about the situation in ASEAN nations, or (ii) upset because not invited to join the party. Currently there are several separate mailing lists carrying the discussions of ASEAN culture, technically it will be more efficient to merge the pertinent discussions into one newsgroup. The members of the mailing lists in Canada, UK, and USA intended to set up a newsgroup, and proposing one newsgroup for each of the ASEAN nations doesn't sound economical. >Note that my opposition is to the newsgroup under the proposed name, >soc.culture.asean. In short, for these reasons and others, please vote >against this name by sending a message, with Please vote YES for soc,culture.asean by sending a message as follows: To: harish@ece.orst.edu Subject: YES to soc.culture.asean Voting NO as suggested by R. K. Raj won't help you achieve anything but creating more net.enemies. Thanks for your support. -- Casey The` the@cs.utexas.edu the@gardenia.berkeley.edu the@cis.ohio-state.edu
randall@uvaarpa.virginia.edu (Randall Atkinson) (10/27/89)
I am not ignorant about SE Asia or the ASEAN countries nor have I any particular axe to grind tonight. I voted NO to soc.culture.asean and encourage others to do likewise because SEVERAL reasonable alternative names were proposed and a strong consensus became clear in the official discussion period that the name was widely thought to be a poor choice. The ad hominem attacks by Casey The in the article I'm following up to were uncalled for and unfortunate.
harish@guille.ece.orst.edu (Harish Pillay) (10/27/89)
In article <9553@june.cs.washington.edu> rkr@june.cs.washington.edu (R. K. Raj) writes:
Raj>I normally believe in the principle of "live and let live," but since
Raj>nothing has been done to address the issue of name, I will take this
Raj>opportunity to request people to vote NO to the group under its present
Raj>name, soc.culture.asean. Two of the reasons are:
Raj>
Raj> (a) nearly all the original objectives of this newsgroup were
Raj>POLITICAL in nature, and definitely not SOCIAL nor CULTURAL. I invite
Raj>Harish Pillay, the prime mover of this newsgroup, to repost his original
Raj>message. I would have done this but my site has unfortunately removed
Raj>the old message.
OK, Mr R. K. Raj, for what its worth, here is my original call for
discussion.
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This is the first call for discussion about a proposal to create a newsgroup
possibly called SOC.CULTURE.ASEAN.
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### Brief History ###
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ASEAN (Association of South East Asian Nations) was formed in 1967 as a
regional grouping to help the nations of South East Asia climb the economic
ladder and to foster regional peace, stability and cultural harmony. There
were 5 original countries - Indonesia, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore and
Thailand. In 1984, when Brunei gained her independence, ASEAN admitted her
as the 6th nation. Currently, Papua New Guniea has an observer status in
the organization.
ASEAN has been instrumental in disproving the "domino effect theory" popular
among many political commentators of the Vietnam war/Nixon era. The turmoil
and strife seen in the Indochinese countries of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos
pretty much ended there after the Vietnam War. The nations of ASEAN continued
on the path of economic progress with the result of Singapore emerging as a
Newly Industrialized Economy with Malaysia and Thailand on the threshold of
becoming a NIE.
The last 10 years have seen the problem of the Vietnamese occupation of
Cambodia occupy the center stage in ASEAN's concerns. There was an ill-fated
Cambodia Peace Conference earlier this year in the light of the Vietnamese
withdrawal from Cambodia. However, with the withdrawal almost completed,
there is a lot of uncertainty in the future of Cambodia as a nation. In any
case, the ASEAN countries are poised to assist any government freely elected
in Cambodia solve basic bread and butter problems and help the country get
back on its feet.
Apart from this, ASEAN is viewed as the most dynamic regional economic
grouping with approximately 300 million people (almost the size of Europe 92)
and exceeding the USA. The vast endowment of natural resources and dynamic
and pragmatic governments of ASEAN have attracted large investments in
industry by multinational companies based in the US, Canada, Europe and Japan.
Lately there have been some concerns being expressed with regards to the
Philippine "Marshall Plan" and the proposal by Singapore to offer naval
facilities to the US Navy. This offer is seen as a blow to ASEAN's concept
of ZOPFAN (Zone of Peace, Freedom And Neutrality).
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### Objective ###
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This newsgroup will serve as a discussion forum for the issues that face
the citizens of ASEAN. It can also serve as a place where free and frank
discussion of so-called "sensitive" issues can be made. It should be kept
unmoderated. By removing the perceived fear of speaking up and discussing
issues that matter without the "government-led" "responsible" journalism
so pervasive in some of the ASEAN countries, it is hoped that this newsgroup
will help foster ASEAN solidarity and understanding.
The newsgroup can be a channel where specific country related issues to be
discussed. If in the future, the traffic for a specific country becomes
dominating in this group, a newsgroup for that country can be spawned off
off this group, for example, soc.culture.asean-singapore or whatever.
One other aspect worth considering would also be future membership of the
3 Indochinese nations - Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam.
There has been a lot of work being done to heighten the awareness of the
ASEAN amongst the constituent citizenry. The bulk of which has been done
at the official, governmental level. This newsgroup should foster people to
people contact at a totally participatory and voluntary manner.
If you have any questions or comments, it is preferred that you post them to
news.groups. If you want to address them to me specifically, the following
should bring it to me:
Internet: harish@ece.orst.edu
UUCP: uunet!ece.orst.edu!harish
Please post your comments to news.groups
Thank you.
Harish Pillay
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If you look under my statement of objectives, I've indicated that this shall
serve as a discussion forum for the issues that face the citizens of ASEAN.
I left it sufficiently wide open to interpretation, to which I had to post
clarifications, specifically, that the group shall be discussing the culture
and customs of the nations making up ASEAN.
Raj> (b) During the discussion period, several folks have observed their
Raj>dissatisfaction with the name for geographical reasons -- the name,
Raj>soc.culture.asean, does not address these reasons adequately.
Raj>
Raj> [...deleted...]
Raj>
Raj>- R. K. Raj
I've stated and restated ad nauseum why the name was chosen. The peoples
of the 6 nations share a lot in common - culture, history, language and
economy. If you want specifics, e-mail me and I shall oblige. If you aren't
from there [and ALL of my objectioners aren't :-(], you'll probably have
a hard time realizing the truth to this.
If the group was to be s.c.se-asia, we'll be bringing in the 3 Indochinese
states and Myanmar (Burma). My only reservation is that I fear that the
group will degenerate to one of mud-slinging between Vietnam and the rest
of SE Asia. If the 3 Indochinese states want to have a newsgroup, someone
should propose and get the process going. You can count on my YES vote to
it. I don't want to open a pandora's box, but, it is perfectly legitimate
to have 2 separate newsgroup for Southeast Asia for there is precedence
already, viz., s.c.china, .taiwan, .hongkong. IMHO, it would have been
sufficient to have s.c.chinese, but, nonetheless, I'd have voted in favor of
each separate group in any case. I'm sure they've valid reasons for having
separate groups.
Once again let me put this out. I am willing to get into ANY discussion with
anyone who is KNOWLEDGEABLE of ASEAN. If, as a result, I'm convinced that
ASEAN is PURELY a political entity, I'll shall stand corrected.
We've already completed the discussion period and the voting is in progress.
I believe the Usenet rules call for ceasation of discussion while the voting
is in progress. Please e-mail me your votes - either No or YES.
Please mail your votes to:
Internet: harish@ece.orst.edu
UUCP: uunet!ece.orst.edu!harish
Thank you.
Harish Pillay harish@ece.orst.edu