peter@unm-la.UUCP (bill peter) (09/19/86)
Well, I wasn't going to get involved in this one, but what the heck... In article <834@mhuxi.UUCP>, dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) writes: >Well, I guess our experiences have differed because I have only met >a few Jewish NEW YORK women who don't fit the stereotype. I have to agree. I think that there is a justifiable reason for the stereotypical N.Y. Jewish woman. On the other hand, I have always heard from these women that they think that many American Jewish guys are immature and that the guys are looking for wives which spoil them and dote on them just like their mothers did. Hence, they seldom look for real feminine companionship on an equal-responsibility basis. (present company excepted :-)) >I guess should have put some (-: next to the above line, but on >further reflection many JAPS that I know (some of my best friends >are JAPS) would rather vacation at Club Med than Israel - assuming >equal costs. Yeah, and it's tragic. Having been born in Israel, and still having all my immediate family there, I sometimes feel foreign to the American Jewish scene, but it does seem to me (as someone else earlier pointed out) that American Jews tend to be more immature than other Jews. I don't know the reason why. >If anything, one can >condemn or condone JAPs or whoever as a group but I highly >resent reading an article with some rather erroneous asumptions >about me that I am not going to dignify with a reply. I agree. The poster who flamed you was unfair, but in a way, his mentality was also symtomatic of an attitude I find in the American Jewish community: insecurity in being Jewish. Another insecurity I seem to see more in American Jews than other Americans is constant worry of not having enough money. In my more religious moments, I recall the Torah's prediction that Jews in the galut would be "tender and delicate" [Dvarim, Ki Tavoh], and that the women would be "b'choser kol" [wanting of all things]. But, in general, I think it is unfair to label all American Jews as such, and that when a guy talks self-righteously about J.A.P.S., he should also realize the stereotype that he himself conveys. -- bill peter Los Alamos National Laboratory ihnp4!lanl!wkp University of New Mexico ihnp4!lanl!unm-la!peter
dave@andromeda.UUCP (Dave Bloom) (09/19/86)
In article <834@mhuxi.UUCP>, dsg@mhuxi.UUCP (David S. Green) writes: > >> The issue > >> seems to be whether or not JAPS ( and the stereotype ) have > >> much validity. I believe that the stereotype is too accurate > >> to disregard. Sounds like one of thoses sweeping generalizations to me. But let's read on. I replied: > >I have met few women who even come close to the > >stereotype. > Well, I guess our experiences have differed because I have only met > a few Jewish NEW YORK women who don't fit the stereotype. Which again sounds like there are very FEW jewish women who don't fit the JAP stereotype. If this were coming from someone other than a Jew, what would you think? It is my opinion that a Jew can be antisemitic. In fact, they're probably the worst of all of them... They're the people that others call upon when you challenge an antisemitic remark: "Wellll, my friend Sol is Jewish.... and he told me all about this JAP stuff." Sol's an idiot. Mr Green comments: > >> We all know about the plight of the poor, elderly Jews > >> in the Lower East Side of New York, but *you* tell me who buys > >> all the BMWs, etc. that support many New York area car dealerships! I've dated a number of Jewish girls from quite *wealthy* families. (By NO means was MY family wealthy). What amazed me was that the girls driving the Vettes, etc. etc. were generally unassuming girls who somehow got a bad rap. Many times they would offer to buy *ME* dinner, take *ME* to a show, etc. etc. etc.. The only thing they were guilty of was coming from rich families with parents that wanted nothing but the best for their children. (Just like my parents would have done if they were able to) If I've met these women and Green hasn't, it must mean one of two things: Either I'm exceptional, or Green's a schlep. Here's a hint: I'm not exceptional. Hence I must conclude that someone who can't find women of such caliber must be turning them off. Rejection carries with it resentment, and re- sentment breeds the type of contempt we see in Green's posting. I reply: > >Jealous?? I wonder how many jewish MEN have gotten their BMW's from mommy > >and daddy. > >You are apparently a frus- > >trated person... perhaps you blame your predicament on your jewish back- > >ground. I've found that there are men who, obligated to marry a Jewish woman because of their upbringing, sour after continuous rejection. What they fail to realize is that the problem isn't that the 'JAP'py women they meet, it's with their own personality. > Minor correction is due here. Mommy and Daddy gave me a Coupe De Ville > as a High School graduation present. They didn't and still don't > feel comfortable buying German cars. I've since traded it in for > an expensive import from another country. We're very happy for you. > What predicament am I blaming on my Jewish background? I've merely > commented on my observations. Note that I never said that I'm not a > "JAP". If Green says that *HE* fits the stereotype, let's talk about THAT. *I* think the stereotype itself is destructive. I prefer to think that a person like that is a stuck up idiot, not a *Jewish* stuck up idiot. > >> Too bad that their daughters favorite > >> whine is "Daaady, I want to go to Miamiiiii!". Remember this quote... In response to it I said: > >I rest my case. As my parents always told me: "The worst kind of anti- > >semite, is a frustrated, self-hating jew". > I guess should have put some (-: next to the above line, but on > further reflection many JAPS that I know (some of my best friends > are JAPS) would rather vacation at Club Med than Israel - assuming > equal costs. > > What right do you have to imply that I am a "frustrated, > self-hating Jew" and "the worst kind of anti-Semite"!!!!!!!!!!!!! The same right I have as anyone else who interprets Green's ramblings. We are all judged by our postings... We all catch heat for what we say. In my opinion, based on Mr. Green's statements, it's obvious that his views toward the female Jewish populace are a direct result of his own inadequacies and frustrations. The statements are CLEARLY antisemitic, hence my reply. > You say you rest your case? What case? What have you shown? > ___________________________________________________________________ > FLAME ON: > > Looking at the History of this "debate", we can see that it started > with someone posting a few mild JAP Jokes. Note that this was > not the first time JAP jokes were posted to this newsgroup. > Then, someone else was perhaps slightly offended and posted > an argument refuting the stereotype BUT the poster also asked > for comments. Another person related experiences with JAPs > and so on. WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY ALL ALONG IS THAT > THE STEREOTYPE HAS SOME BASIS IN REALITY AND IS WORTH DISCUSSING. This is what he CLAIMS to say. What his posting REALLY says is that Jewish women are by and large stuck up bitches.... > This morning, I read one article in this newsgroup that made > some good points about the discussion. What made that article > different was that it presented ideas. The poster did not > really attack the prior posters. If anything, one can > condemn or condone JAPs or whoever as a group but I highly > resent reading an article with some rather erroneous asumptions > about me that I am not going to dignify with a reply. Bull. Statements were made and their implications were hostile to Jewish women... many of whom are my friends. If someone wants to make sweeping generalizations which justify some kind of predjudice, they must face being analyzed.... > TALK ABOUT IDEAS, NOT PEOPLE!!!!!!! I disagree. Isolated ideas don't exist, and ideas aren't meant to be tossed around like rocks. If you make an inflammatory statement, you deserve to get your foot shoved in your mouth. -- harvard\ pyramid\ Dave Bloom seismo \ pyrnj \ ut-sally >!topaz >!andromeda!dave Office: (201) 648-5083 allegra / caip / ihnp4!packard/ yogi/ "You're never alone with a schizophrenic...."