andy@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Andy Freeman) (10/17/86)
Who actually teaches CS classes at other schools? How are
graduate students supported?
In Stanford's CS department, a large majority of the post-intro classes
are taught by professors, not graduate students. Almost all PhD*
students are supported by research grants or fellowships. ("Large
majority" and "almost all" are both over 75% and probably much higher.)
As the new undergraduate degree starts up, I expect this to change
somewhat - we've been told that it won't.
In case it matters, about half of Stanford's CS PhDs go into industry.
I bring this up because of a survey I read in either net.cse or
soc.college. One of the questions was whether graduate students
belonged to a union. That didn't make sense to me until I realized
that graduate students might be supported elsewhere as teachers
instead of as researchers.
Is student teaching fair to either the teachers or their students?
(I know that some TAs and graduate student teachers are wonderful
and that some professors shouldn't be allowed inside a classroom.
I think that's irrelevant; am I wrong?)
-andy
* Stanford's CS MS and PhD programs are fairly separate. Most PhD
students are admitted directly into that program after their BS/BA;
few MS students change programs and few PhD students get an MS on
their way. For the most part, MS students are not supported through
Stanford; many are supported by outside employers.
--
UUCP: ...!decwrl!glacier!shasta!andy forwards to
ARPA: andy@sushi.stanford.edu
(415) 329-1718/723-3088 home/cubiclehonavar@uwai.UUCP (Humanoid #1vgh1) (10/18/86)
In article <922@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU> andy@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes: >Who actually teaches CS classes at other schools? How are >graduate students supported? > At University of Wisconsin-Madison, only the introductory CS classes are taught by TAs. Examples of introductory classes are the first programming course, Intro to Computers for non CS majors and the like. However, TAs may be involved in grading and/or consulting with students in post-introductory courses. Graduate students are supported by teaching and research assistantships as well as fellowships and occasionally by jobs in the university computing facilities. > >I bring this up because of a survey I read in either net.cse or >soc.college. One of the questions was whether graduate students >belonged to a union. That didn't make sense to me until I realized >that graduate students might be supported elsewhere as teachers >instead of as researchers. There is a teaching assistants' union here to which TAs can belong if they want to. > >Is student teaching fair to either the teachers or their students? >(I know that some TAs and graduate student teachers are wonderful >and that some professors shouldn't be allowed inside a classroom. >I think that's irrelevant; am I wrong?) Graduate students that are given teaching responsibilities are well qualified for the job. For Ph.D students who might choose to stay in the academia after graduation, teaching is a useful experience. Often, there are not enough professors to teach introductory CS courses and TAs have to fill the void. The question of fairness is irrelevant so long as graduate students are not forced to teach against their will and students are not taught by incompetent TAs. At UW-Madison, TA taught sections are limited in enrollment to a maximum of 25 and the small class size is really a big plus in an introductory undergraduate course. It would never be practical to have professors teach over 30 sections of intro. to programming and retain the small class size. > > Vasant Honavar honavar@ai.wisc.edu
citrin@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Wayne Citrin) (10/19/86)
In article <922@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU> andy@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes: > >I bring this up because of a survey I read in either net.cse or >soc.college. One of the questions was whether graduate students >belonged to a union. That didn't make sense to me until I realized >that graduate students might be supported elsewhere as teachers >instead of as researchers. > I was the one who asked the question about grad student unionization. I see no reason why a union should not protect the rights of all grad student employees, both teachers and researchers. I agree that there is more potential for abuses with TA's, and the incipient grad student employees' union here at UC Berkeley (AGSE), has devoted much of its attention to the problems of TA's. Support for this union in the CS department has been lukewarm, I think, for two reasons. First, RA's here are paid on a slightly higher scale than RA's in most other departments. It was feared that collective bargaining would lead to lower salaries for us. I don't think there's much basis for worry. Second, the department already has a fairly powerful and activist grad student association, so that a union would be superfluous. This does not seem like a good reason for not supporting a union to help less fortunate grad students in otherdepartments. I'd like to hear from some students at other schools that have grad student unions. Wayne Citrin (ucbvax!citrin)
sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu (Steve Chapin) (10/20/86)
In article <922@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU>, andy@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes: > Who actually teaches CS classes at other schools? How are > graduate students supported? > Here at purdue it works (vaguely) like this: MS students teach intro classes and some medium-level classes. Professors teach some medium-level and advanced level classes. PhD students research. All references to classes mean undergrad classes. This works out fairly well, since people are not considered PhD students until we pass our qualifiers (which I haven't yet; taking them next year). So, most of the service/intro classes are taught by the rather transient group of MS students, and the future PhD students. By the time a student passes quals, he/she has usually already fulfilled any teaching requirement for the degree. At that time, s/he picks up a major professor and usually a research project... sc --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Chapin | Chapin's Law of Motion: ARPA: sjc@mordred.cs.purdue.edu | You can get anywhere in 10 minutes UUCP: ...!purdue!sjc | if you drive fast enough. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
conrad@wucs.UUCP (Conrad Cunningham) (10/21/86)
In article <16187@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> citrin@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Wayne Citrin) writes: >... Second, the department already has a fairly powerful and activist >grad student association, so that a union would be superfluous. ... With what types of issues does such a "grad student association" concern itself: economic and working condition issues? departmental policy? curriculum and programs? departmental faculty recruitment and tenure issues? professional issues? political and social issues? social activities for grad students? Conrad Cunningham Washington University in St. Louis
abc@brl-smoke.ARPA (Brint Cooper ) (10/22/86)
In article <424@uwai.UUCP> honavar@ai.WISC.EDU (Humanoid #1vgh1) writes: >In article <922@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU> andy@Shasta.STANFORD.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes: >>Who actually teaches CS classes at other schools? How are >>graduate students supported? > Often, there are not enough professors to teach > introductory CS courses and TAs have to fill the void. The > question of fairness is irrelevant so long as graduate students > are not forced to teach against their will and students are not > taught by incompetent TAs. > There are some serious questions here. When the choice for a grad student is "teach or pay your own way" it is arguable whether the student is teaching for or against his/her own will. The second serious question is the competence of the TA. Surely knowing how to write Pascal programs doesn't make a TA competent to teach programming to freshmen or any other classes. Further, the TA is a transient member of the academic community and is less likely to have to live with the results of his/her poor or inexperienced than is a permanent faculty member. Also, TAs tend to be the more junior grad students. Those with more longevity have often gotten themselves into faculty research projects which support their tuition and stipends. Finally, the discussion of TA competence must include language skills. More junior TAs, newly arrived in the United States often speak English so poorly that they can barely communicate difficult concepts to anxious undergraduates. Passing the "Test of Written English" doesn't quite cut it. I'm not saying that every prof is a better, more articulate, more caring teacher than every TA. But certainly, those undergraduates who study at institutions where the faculty teach are, in the main, better off than those with a battalion of TAs teaching the "hordes." -- Brint Cooper ARPA: abc@brl.arpa UUCP: ...{seismo,unc,decvax,cbosgd}!brl-smoke!abc
citrin@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU (Wayne Citrin) (10/22/86)
In article <1798@wucs.UUCP> conrad@wucs.UUCP (Conrad Cunningham) writes: >In article <16187@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> citrin@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU.UUCP (Wayne Citrin) writes: >>... Second, the department already has a fairly powerful and activist >>grad student association, so that a union would be superfluous. ... > >With what types of issues does such a "grad student association" concern >itself: economic and working condition issues? departmental policy? >curriculum and programs? departmental faculty recruitment and tenure >issues? professional issues? political and social issues? social >activities for grad students? > Well, a couple of the issues that have been addressed in the last few years have been the following: Provided the impetus for changing an oral prelim system widely perceived as inhumane to a more humane written/oral system. Provides "quality control" for the prelim system by pre-testing each new exam and compiling lists of back exams. Is about to start a project to analyse the results of prelims for the last 5 years to determine the effectiveness of the new format. Got the department to let students to serve on departmental committees, including the grad admissions committee and the curriculum committee. Is involved in new faculty recruiting through interviews with the candidates. Conducts forums where the department chairman and professors serving on various committees answer questions on student concerns. Conducts new student orientations and recruitment of prospective students who have been accepted. Before this, there was no organized recruitment program. Opposed a faculty plan to have students report consulting time (and possibly income) to the faculty. The faculty backed down on this one. Is investigating the consequences of the new tax laws on students. Got the department to give raises to RA's who passed quals in order to cover university fees. Was primarity responsible for solving a space problem by obtaining office space and desks for new students who never had them before. Sends delegates to the twice-a-year departmental faculty retreat. Conducts the usual social activities. There are still some areas where the CSGSA is not involved, like tenure issues. I can't recall any involvement in labor issues, but that hasn't been much of a problem. Again, let me just say that despite this, I still feel that a grad student union is worthy of our support. Wayne Citrin (ucbvax!citrin)