timlee@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Timothy J. Lee) (12/12/88)
In article <8229@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> bandersnatch@ernie.Berkeley.EDU (ethan miller) writes: >-> The Uninversity of Calfornia does not discriminate on the >->basis of race , color, NATIONAL ORIGIN, sex , handicap >They DO care whether you are currently a legal CA resident. >Are they discriminating? NO. Yes, they are. But they are discriminating on the basis of California Residency, not on the basis of Evil Things That You Can't Discriminate On The Basis Of (such as race, color, sex, national origin, handicap, sexual orientation, whatever else there is in this list). That is unless they grant California Residency in a manner that discriminates on the basis of the aforementioned Evil Things.
conrad@wucs1.wustl.edu (H. Conrad Cunningham) (12/13/88)
Why are American doctoral programs in technical fields dominated by non-American students? Possibilities: (1) The American educational system is lousy and doing an awful job at preparing our students for such study. (2) Foreign students are "beating out" American students for the openings in doctoral programs. (3) Many good American students don't see the value in pursuing a doctorate and/or are not willing to make the "necessary" personal and financial sacrifices. Comments: (1) There may be quite a bit of truth to this, but it has already been argued at length. (2) I doubt it in most cases. (3) I think this is the primary reason. For many foreign students doctoral programs have an enormous payoff--in terms of personal economic and social status and in terms of place of residence. For students from highly competitive situations or from less developed economies, the doctorate may be the "ticket" that is necessary to ensure them admission to the "good life" when they return home. Or perhaps it is the "ticket" that gives them admission to a country with a "higher standard of living". For many American students this is not the case. In many technical fields good American students have access to well-paying jobs after completion of a bachelors' or masters' degree. The doctorate may be little advantage in most situations--and in some cases a disadvantage. Many good students decide that completion of a doctorate is not worth the "hassle" and the "economic deprivation" that a doctoral program entails. Possessing a doctoral degree doesn't necessary confer much social prestige in American society. I don't know, but perhaps it does in other countries. Our culture has always been quite practical and populistic--not really valuing "elitist" notions such as "love of learning" or really trusting "eggheads" too much. Scientists and engineers are stereotyped as "nerds." What can be done to encourage more American students to undertake doctoral studies? Try to make it more economically and socially worthwhile--support graduate students at a level that is more competitive with entry-level jobs--provide more research funding and support for education. Of course, the situation may correct itself somewhat. The American economy and educational system may deteriorate to the point that few foreign students want an American education. The job market may cool off, so that doctorates are more important "ticket" to the "good life." With tongue slightly in cheek, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- H. Conrad Cunningham | Title: Research Assistant Department of Computer Science | Telephone: (314) 889-5087 Washington University | Internet: conrad@wucs1.wustl.edu Campus Box 1045, Bryan 509 |--------------------------------------------- One Brookings Drive | This space St. Louis, MO 63123-4899 USA | for rent -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
matloff@bizet.Berkeley.EDU (Norman Matloff) (12/14/88)
In article <613@wucs1.wustl.edu> conrad@wucs1.UUCP (H. Conrad Cunningham) writes: >Why are American doctoral programs in technical fields dominated by >non-American students? >(3) Many good American students don't see the value in pursuing a >doctorate and/or are not willing to make the "necessary" personal and >financial sacrifices. >(3) I think this is the primary reason. I agree. [Concerning the motivation of foreign students for American graduate study, Conrad says:] >Or perhaps it is the "ticket" that gives >them admission to a country with a "higher standard of living". Yes, this is true. As I said, the foreign students get hired by American companies who sponsor them for immigration. The INS will in most cases not grant this request if the person only has a Bachelor's degree (especially a foreign one), so graduate study is indeed this "ticket." Furthermore, since many universities will not give financial support to M.S. students, a number of foreign students opt for the Ph.D. program when all they really want is an M.S. It is common for such a student to leave after getting the M.S. (in programs in which one "automatically" picks up an M.S. after a year or two in the Ph.D. program). However, there is certainly the cultural aspect too: >Possessing a doctoral degree doesn't necessary confer much social >prestige in American society. I don't know, but perhaps it does in >other countries. Yes it does, particularly in Asia, where most of the foreign students come from. I might note that even a disproportionate number of DOMESTIC students in doctoral programs are relatively "new" Americans, e.g. children or grandchildren of immigrants, and thus retain part of the respect that other cultures give to a Ph.D. Norm