bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) (01/31/91)
From article <5606@auspex.auspex.com>, by hitz@auspex.auspex.com (Dave Hitz): > A friend of mine is looking for a student who can get a good > educational discount to by him a Mac. (I mean, he'll pay for it, but > the student has to buy it for the discount to work.) > > And he'll also pay the student $200 (or anyone who has access to the > educational discount) $200 for their trouble. This may be illegal at most educational institutions. Here you must sign a statement that you are buying the machine for your own use. I presume the intent of the statement is to discourage exactly the sort of thing your friend proposes. -- Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu
sharp@fsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Maurice Sharp) (01/31/91)
In article <3866@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu writes: >From article <5606@auspex.auspex.com>, by hitz@auspex.auspex.com (Dave Hitz): >> A friend of mine is looking for a student who can get a good >> educational discount to by him a Mac. (I mean, he'll pay for it, but >> the student has to buy it for the discount to work.) >> >> And he'll also pay the student $200 (or anyone who has access to the >> educational discount) $200 for their trouble. > >This may be illegal at most educational institutions. Here you must Hiya, Paul was not strong enough in his protest. I think what your friend is proposing is not only illegal but immoral. It is people like your friend that could cause students to loose their educational discount. Students get good prices for two main reaons. One it is good advertising for the company that gives the discount. Two, students do not have much money. Your friend probably works, makes money, has a car. <FLAME ON> Let the cheap bastard buy his own damn mac. Stop trying to exploit students. Enough people are doing that already without some cheapskate trying to add to the problem. <FLAME OFF> On a more positive note. Try calling MacFriends (see any mac mag). Their prices compare to those we get with an educational discount. maurice -- Maurice Sharp MSc. Student (403) 220 7690 University of Calgary Computer Science Department 2500 University Drive N.W. sharp@cpsc.UCalgary.CA Calgary, Alberta, T2N 1N4 GEnie M.SHARP5
time@tbomb.ice.com (Tim Endres) (01/31/91)
In article <1991Jan31.031816.5109@cpsc.ucalgary.ca>, sharp@fsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Maurice Sharp) writes: > >>From article <5606@auspex.auspex.com>, by hitz@auspex.auspex.com (Dave Hitz): > >> A friend of mine is looking for a student who can get a good > >> educational discount to by him a Mac. (I mean, he'll pay for it, but > >> the student has to buy it for the discount to work.) > >> > >> And he'll also pay the student $200 (or anyone who has access to the > >> educational discount) $200 for their trouble. > > > >This may be illegal at most educational institutions. Here you must > > Hiya, > > Paul was not strong enough in his protest. I think what your > friend is proposing is not only illegal but immoral. It is people like > your friend that could cause students to loose their educational > discount. I am totally amazed that anyone would post this article for someone else. tim. ------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Endres | time@ice.com ICE Engineering | uupsi!ice.com!time 8840 Main Street | Voice FAX Whitmore Lake MI. 48189 | (313) 449 8288 (313) 449 9208
dbarnhar@oiscola.Columbia.NCR.COM (02/02/91)
In article <1991Jan31.031816.5109@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> sharp@fsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Maurice Sharp) writes: > > Paul was not strong enough in his protest. I think what your >friend is proposing is not only illegal but immoral. It is people like >your friend that could cause students to loose their educational >discount. > This is true, but it doesn't excuse your next paragraph. > Students get good prices for two main reaons. One it is good >advertising for the company that gives the discount. Two, students do >not have much money. Your friend probably works, makes money, has a >car. Just wait till you get out and have to pay $8,000 or more for a mac, and I'll see what you say then. Of course students don't have much money, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us should have to pay the OUTRAGEOUS list prices for these machines. Of course, only a legal recourse to this problem is permissible, but the argument that: "someone works, makes money, and has a car ==> he can afford to pay full price for a mac" just doesn't hold water. > > On a more positive note. Try calling MacFriends (see any mac mag). >Their prices compare to those we get with an educational discount. > You should have said this in the first place instead of trying to use a worthless argument. Dave Barnhart NCR Cooperative Computing Systems Division 3245 Platt Springs Rd. West Columbia, SC 29169 email: uunet!ncrlnk!ncrcae!oiscola!dbarnhar -- Dave Barnhart NCR Cooperative Computing Systems Division 3245 Platt Springs Rd. West Columbia, SC 29169 email: uunet!ncrlnk!ncrcae!oiscola!dbarnhar
sharp@fsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Maurice Sharp) (02/03/91)
In article <340@oiscola.Columbia.NCR.COM> dbarnhar@oiscola.UUCP (David C. Barnhart II) writes: >In article <1991Jan31.031816.5109@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> sharp@fsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Maurice Sharp) writes: >This is true, but it doesn't excuse your next paragraph. [stuff about why students get a break] >Just wait till you get out and have to pay $8,000 or more for a mac, >and I'll see what you say then. Of course students don't have much >money, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us should have to pay >the OUTRAGEOUS list prices for these machines. Of course, only a >legal recourse to this problem is permissible, but the argument that: >"someone works, makes money, and has a car ==> he can afford to pay >full price for a mac" just doesn't hold water. Talk about putting words into my mouth. My argument was, 1. Students do not make/have much money 2. Some corporations realise this 3. They also realise students will one day make buying decisions 4. Therefore give students a deal now and a) look good, b) sell products later when the ex-students can afford it. As to the market price for Macs. I agree, most of them are expensive. I did not say I agreed with the prices. I also pointed out the you can get Macs for close to the price I pay. I also agree I came on strong. But there has been too much advantage taken of educational pricing by people who are not students or faculty. We almost lost some of our pricing here thanks to people trying to break the rules. I wanted to make it clear that student prices are for students. Obviously I hit home. maurice -- Maurice Sharp MSc. Student (403) 220 7690 University of Calgary Computer Science Department 2500 University Drive N.W. sharp@cpsc.UCalgary.CA Calgary, Alberta, T2N 1N4 GEnie M.SHARP5
johnston@oscar.ccm.udel.edu (02/04/91)
An observation: It had been suggested that Apple is defrauded by "ineligibles" who arrange to buy Macs at academic discounts. I think the real losers are the VARs and retailers (the ComputerLands and BusinessLands). In our area, a local ComputerLand does an enormous amount of repair work on computers purchased by students. The costs might be defrayed by repair charges or Apple warranty reimbursements, but the net result is that a ComputerLand is giving up some of its ability to service paying customers in order to fulfill it's obligation as an authorized reseller. Service people have told me that the non-student academic Macs just add insult to injury. I guess this won't dissuade somebody who'll try to give a student $200 to break a contract -- but there is more at stake than a few dollars lost in Apple profits. Why give ComputerLand yet another reason to push IBM PC's? -- Bill (johnston@oscar.ccm.udel.edu)
elm@sprite.Berkeley.EDU (ethan miller) (02/04/91)
In article <340@oiscola.Columbia.NCR.COM>, dbarnhar@oiscola.Columbia.NCR.COM writes: %In article <1991Jan31.031816.5109@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> sharp@fsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Maurice Sharp) writes: %> Students get good prices for two main reaons. One it is good %>advertising for the company that gives the discount. Two, students do %>not have much money. Your friend probably works, makes money, has a %>car. % %Just wait till you get out and have to pay $8,000 or more for a mac, %and I'll see what you say then. Of course students don't have much %money, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us should have to pay %the OUTRAGEOUS list prices for these machines. Of course, only a %legal recourse to this problem is permissible, but the argument that: %"someone works, makes money, and has a car ==> he can afford to pay %full price for a mac" just doesn't hold water. Apple is legally entitled to place conditions on the sale of the Macintosh. So is every other company. Ford could legally sell you a car with a contract saying that you couldn't resell the car without Ford's permission. This is a perfectly legitimate contract. However, no one would buy a Ford under those conditions (unless, perhaps, they got a big discount). Airlines do this all the time--the ticket is only valid for the person named on the ticket. The airline has the right to confiscate the ticket if you're not the person whose name is on it. This holds for *all* tickets, not just special student tickets. The airlines rarely enforce this for non-special rate tickets, but they are allowed to. In fact, what Apple is doing is *exactly* analogous to what AmEx/NWAir did for the last two years. They gave out vouchers for cheap (around $100) tickets anywhere in the US on Northwest. Only the student could use them. Nobody thought *that* was illegal, so why should what Apple is doing be illegal? ethan -- ================================= ethan miller--cs grad student elm@sprite.berkeley.edu #include <std/disclaimer.h> {...}!ucbvax!sprite!elm Witty signature line condemned due to major quake damage.
aaron@nyu.edu (Aaron Sosnick) (02/05/91)
It is not clear that reselling a Mac bought with a student discount is illegal. It is certainly not a criminal offense. You cannot go to jail for it. Usually when you buy property it is yours. You may do what you want with it, including sell it. Any obligation not to resell a Mac would constitute a contract between you and Apple. There are many reasons a contract may not be valid. Some of them may apply here. In particular, unreasonable restrictions on the use of property are often unenforceable. Selling a Mac when you no longer have a use for it is arguably reasonable. In any event, a general principle of contract law holds that contract violation only makes you liable for damage done to the other party and that that party holds the burden of proof in any court case. Apple will have a hard time showing that they have been damaged if you would not have bought a Mac at a higher price. Furthermore it is very unlikely that they would go to court to regain a few hundred dollars. In my opinion Apple's monopolistic and anti-competitive efforts to segment markets and restrict product use constitute the real ethical wrongdoing. To be safe I would advise one to simply offer to pay someone $200 more than Apple's discount prices for a little-used Mac. This will make it clear that you are not advocating that anyone enter into a contract with Apple with intent to defraud. I am not a lawyer, but I play one on the net.
krk@cs.purdue.EDU (Kevin Kuehl) (02/05/91)
In article <1991Feb5.034345.9115@bond> bond!aaron@nyu.edu (Aaron Sosnick) writes:
It is not clear that reselling a Mac bought with a student discount is
illegal.
Usually when you buy property it is yours. You may do what you want with it,
including sell it.
The agreement I signed when I bought my Mac didn't prevent me from
reselling it. All it said was that if I decided to sell it within the
next 2 or 3 years (can't remember which) I had to make a reasonable
effort to sell it to someone who also qualified for the educational
discount. After making a reasonable effort, I was free to do anything
I wanted with it. Since this is pretty vague, I imagine that it is
pretty unenforcable except when someone pays me $200 to get them a Mac
and I turn it over to them within a month of receiving it. I don't
see how someone could claim they made a reasonable effort in that
case.
--
Kevin Kuehl
krk@cs.purdue.edu
kuehlkr@mentor.cc.purude.edupmulcahy@ecst.csuchico.edu (Patrick Mulcahy) (02/06/91)
In article <1991Feb5.034345.9115@bond> bond!aaron@nyu.edu (Aaron Sosnick) writes: > >It is not clear that reselling a Mac bought with a student discount is >illegal. It is certainly not a criminal offense. You cannot go to jail for it. > >To be safe I would advise one to simply offer to pay someone $200 more than >Apple's discount prices for a little-used Mac. This will make it clear that >you are not advocating that anyone enter into a contract with Apple with intent >to defraud. well, the contract you sign with apple states that you are buying the mac for personal use and that you will not sell it for 2 years. it's hard to get around it without opening yourself to a clear case of fraud. selling a 'little used' computer is fine with apple, provided you've kept it for 2 years. nice try, but not quite. violating this contract leaves you open to more than just the amount of damages, as apple can sue for punitive damages, etc. the claim that you would only be liable for the difference in price is silly. it simply goes to show that... > >I am not a lawyer, but I play one on the net. is very true. please don't give legal advice if your not sure of it. p. * capital letters are evil * patrick michael mulcahy (now that's irish) * pmulcahy@ecst.csuchico.edu at csuc (c-suck or cal state chico to you) * acm@ecst.csuchico.edu *** grad student and wanna-be philosopher... *** *** graduating in dec-91 with a masters in a.i. *** *** think about hiring me now, avoid the rush. ***
henry@garp.mit.edu (Henry Mensch) (02/06/91)
bond!aaron@nyu.edu (Aaron Sosnick) wrote: ->It is not clear that reselling a Mac bought with a student discount is ->illegal. It is certainly not a criminal offense. You cannot go to jail for it. it's not clear that this is a *criminal* offense ... nor that it is *illegal* ... but if you sign an agreement which says you won't resell it and you break that agreement then you might find yourself subject to civil suit. here at MIT, the campus computer store pushes macintoshes, ps/2's, and 386 boxes provided by the various manufacturers under an academic discount. to purchase one of these you sign an agreement which states that you won't resell the computer within some period (two years, i think). you're allowed to buy one of each type of computer during that period (therefore, one macintosh, one ps/2, and one 386 box). it would seem to me that, while a civil suit is certainly overkill, the Institute could make your life miserable with administrative sanctions if you chose to dishonor this agreement. note also that the contracts are not typically with the computer manufacturer, but with the reseller (usually a campus computer store which has the capability to service these computers, monitor the purchases, etc.) ->I am not a lawyer, but I play one on the net. indeed ... # Henry Mensch / <henry@garp.mit.edu> / E40-379 MIT, Cambridge, MA # <hmensch@uk.ac.nsfnet-relay> / <henry@tts.lth.se> / <mensch@munnari.oz.au> # via X.400: S=mensch; OU=informatik; P=tu-muenchen; A=dbp; C=de
dpassage@tornado.Berkeley.EDU (David G. Paschich) (02/10/91)
In article <1991Jan31.031816.5109@cpsc.ucalgary.ca> sharp@fsd.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Maurice Sharp) writes: >In article <3866@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu writes: >>From article <5606@auspex.auspex.com>, by hitz@auspex.auspex.com (Dave Hitz): >>> A friend of mine is looking for a student who can get a good >>> educational discount to by him a Mac. (I mean, he'll pay for it, but >>> the student has to buy it for the discount to work.) >>> >>> And he'll also pay the student $200 (or anyone who has access to the >>> educational discount) $200 for their trouble. >> >>This may be illegal at most educational institutions. Here you must > > Paul was not strong enough in his protest. I think what your >friend is proposing is not only illegal but immoral. It is people like >your friend that could cause students to loose their educational >discount. On a more constructive note, it should be noted that the current student price for a Mac Classic with 2MB and a 40MB hard drive is $1150 or so, while the current street price is around $1300, thus not making it worth paying $200 for the priviledge of getting the student discount. One side effect of Apple's new low pricing strategy is that the student discount isn't nearly as deep anymore David G. Paschich dpassage@ocf.berkeley.edu Just say not to huge .sigs!