stim@fluke.UUCP (Randy Stimpson) (09/23/86)
The October issue of Sojourners featured an article on abortion by feminist Ginny Soley. In the article she shows how the rights of women and unborn children must be addressed together, rather than separately. Following are a few quotes from the article. "In order to deal with abortion, we must deal with the reality of the oppression of women as a class of people within a particular culture. From that perspective the question of abortion really becomes a question of justice. What does it mean to do justice? What does it mean to bring forth justice for women and their children?" .... "The particular and unique contribution of Christian feminism is to question two assumptions. The first assumption it questions is that the individual's self-interest is, in fact, the highest value. The second assumption it questions is the vision of justice that pits a woman's rights against a child's right to life, that forces us to see only one victim over and against another victim. "What we need is to find a way that is good for both mother and child. In the Christian worldview, the highest value extends beyond individual self-interest to what is good for the whole of the community. The responsibility for anything we do also extends beyond the individual to the whole of the community." Randy Stimpson
cheryl@batcomputer.TN.CORNELL.EDU (cheryl) (09/26/86)
In article <1604@vax1.fluke.UUCP> stim@fluke.UUCP (Randy Stimpson) writes: > > >The October issue of Sojourners featured an article on abortion by feminist >Ginny Soley. In the article she shows how the rights of women and unborn >children must be addressed together, rather than separately. Following are >a few quotes from the article. ... > >"What we need is to find a way that is good for both mother and child. In the >Christian worldview, the highest value extends beyond individual self-interest >to what is good for the whole of the community. The responsibility for >anything we do also extends beyond the individual to the whole of the >community." > Unfortunately, she apparently says nothing about the nature of her proposed solution. These statements could be an intro to a demand for widespread high-level welfare for all pregnant women such that any woman can raise a child in the manner to which they would like to become accustomed; or it could be an intro to a demand that all women be raised in a more "Christian" manner -- that books be banned, that marriages happen early, and that women subordinate themselves to those who provide for them. Could this noncommittal stance of hers be intentionally ambiguous, such that it offends neither feminists nor moral majority types, since each can read into the article what they would like? Randy, if there is more substantive material in this article, please quote that, too. Cheryl
devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (09/26/86)
In article <> stim@fluke.UUCP (Randy Stimpson) writes: > >The October issue of Sojourners featured an article on abortion by feminist >Ginny Soley. In the article she shows how the rights of women and unborn >children must be addressed together, rather than separately. Following are >a few quotes from the article. > >.... > >"The particular and unique contribution of Christian feminism is to question >two assumptions. The first assumption it questions is that the individual's >self-interest is, in fact, the highest value. The second assumption it >questions is the vision of justice that pits a woman's rights against a child's >right to life, that forces us to see only one victim over and against another >victim. > >"What we need is to find a way that is good for both mother and child. In the >Christian worldview, the highest value extends beyond individual self-interest >to what is good for the whole of the community. The responsibility for >anything we do also extends beyond the individual to the whole of the >community." > > >Randy Stimpson Randy, Exactly how is this statement a "unique contribution" of Christian feminism? Churches faithful to be Bible have always taught that love for neighbor is a central tenent of the Christian faith. It doesn't matter whether that neighbor is a pregnant teenager in need of a place to stay because her parents have tossed her out of the house, or an unborn child who is about to be scraped from the womb for the sake of convenience. The unique contribution of the Christian gospel is that it makes us a people who are more interested in your rights than in my rights. We should all be as the Samaritan who was willing to risk life and property for the sake of another. -- Tom Albrecht "Reformata, semper reformanda"
pmd@cbdkc1.UUCP (Paul M. Dubuc) (09/26/86)
Thanks for posting the quotes, Randy. I can tell you that you'll probably get some nasty letters (from a few men, probably) for posting an article that challenges the pro-choice feminist line on abortion, even though this subject is as much about feminism as abortion. I got this reaction when I posted an article describing the book _Pro-Life Feminism: Different Voices_ (Gail Grenier Sweet, ed.). No, I haven't learned my lesson, guys. :-) I still think people ought to know that you can be against abortion *on demand* and be for women's rights. I think there are some good arguments (those who have read my stuff in net.abortion a couple of months ago have seen some of them) to the effect that legalized abortion on demand may have done more harm than good for women. The concern for a consistent appeal for justice in our society is forging a pro-life consensus on human rights issues like abortion, poverty, discrimination, and the arms race. The newly formed Political Action Committee "JustLife", which I described a while back is just one expression of this. I hope this consensus grows enough to leave out in the cold those who insist on clinging to the inconsistent extremes on these issues. (I have about 7 information packets on JustLife that I would be glad to send to the first 7 people who will mail me their postal address. To the rest I'll send JustLife's address. I don't have that handy to post right now.) -- Paul Dubuc cbdkc1!pmd
raghu@ut-sally.UUCP (Raghu Ramakrishnan) (09/29/86)
>The unique contribution of the Christian gospel is that it makes us a >people who are more interested in your rights than in my rights. We should >all be as the Samaritan who was willing to risk life and property for the >sake of another. > >Tom Albrecht >"Reformata, semper reformanda" Why? raghu
terry@nrcvax.UUCP (Terry Grevstad) (09/30/86)
raghu@sally.utexas.edu.UUCP (Raghu Ramakrishnan) says: >>The unique contribution of the Christian gospel is that it makes us a >>people who are more interested in your rights than in my rights. We should >>all be as the Samaritan who was willing to risk life and property for the >>sake of another. >> >>Tom Albrecht >>"Reformata, semper reformanda" > >Why? > >raghu Someday when *you* need help and everyone else is asking ``Why?'' maybe you'll know. -- _______________________________________________________________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- without a Terry Grevstad ECNALG Network Research Corporation ihnp4!nrcvax!terry {sdcsvax,hplabs}!sdcrdcf!psivax!nrcvax!terry _______________________________________________________________________ -----------------------------------------------------------------------
kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) (09/30/86)
In article <5833@ut-sally.UUCP> raghu@sally.utexas.edu.UUCP (Raghu Ramakrishnan) writes: >>The unique contribution of the Christian gospel is that it makes us a >>people who are more interested in your rights than in my rights. We should >>all be as the Samaritan who was willing to risk life and property for the >>sake of another. >> >>Tom Albrecht >>"Reformata, semper reformanda" > >Why? > >raghu When one becomes a Christian many changes occur in his or her life. The biggest change is that God becomes the center of the person's life rather than self being the center. As the relationship between God and man continues, man becomes transformed into the image of God. God himself is love. After Christ's life on earth, Christians are giving just *one* new commandment as shown in John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you." This commandment lives in our heart's and is powered by God himself. We see many examples of this attitude that was shown in the life of Christ and documented in the Bible. One such example is the role of Christ as a servant where he is shown washing the feet of his disciples. He shows us that we should put the needs of others before our own. Jesus himself said that "there is no greater love than this that a man would lay down his life for a friend." As we develop our life with God as the center, we begin to approach life in a different way: The way God approaches life. Now imagine the ideal situation where everybody reacted to life in this way, wanted the best for others. If everybody lived their lives in that way, I think we'd have a pretty good idea of what heaven is like. Kiki
smdev@csustan.UUCP (Scott Hazen Mueller) (10/01/86)
In article <> kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) writes: >In article <> raghu@sally.utexas.edu.UUCP (Raghu Ramakrishnan) writes: >>>[...some xtian propaganda saying we should all be "Good Samaritans"...] >>> >>>Tom Albrecht >> >>Why? >> >>raghu > >[...more xtian propaganda saying the same thing...] > >Kiki This is called begging the question. You assume that for some reason there is something intrinsically good about treating other people as equals and then say, "Now wouldn't it be nice if people really did this." There are real and good _reasons_ for treating with others as equals; they also have nothing to do with one or another religion. There is the pragmatic reason that people will have nothing to do with you if you do not act as if they are worth something. There is the internal reason that quite often it simply *feels good* to be polite/nice/helpful to others. If you don't want to feel good, and don't care to interact with society, there is nothing at all _wrong_ with being an obnoxious idiot; just don't act like one and expect people to care to associate with you. I have no respect for people who argue that something is right (or wrong) because "the Bible says so." \scott -- Scott Hazen Mueller lll-crg.arpa!csustan!smdev City of Turlock work: (209) 668-5590 -or- 5628 901 South Walnut Avenue home: (209) 527-1203 Turlock, CA 95380 <Insert pithy saying here...>
rap@oliveb.UUCP (Robert A. Pease) (10/01/86)
In article <311@isieng.UUCP> kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) writes: >As we develop our life with God as the center, we begin >to approach life in a different way: The way God approaches life. Now imagine >the ideal situation where everybody reacted to life in this way, wanted the >best for others. If everybody lived their lives in that way, I think we'd >have a pretty good idea of what heaven is like. > >Kiki The intention is a nice one, but the idea frightens me. My first question, of course, is who is going to decide whats best for me? If I am to decide, then you need to know of my decision and abide by it. If you are to decide, then I am to be bound by something that will very likely cause me great amounts of discomfort. Be careful with this idea. It can be easily used to justify a lifestyle akin to that depicted in "1984". I think what has a better outcome is to live and let live. Its like I tell my kids, "Don't you worry what she's doing, you take care of yourself and let her take care of herself." -- Robert A. Pease {hplabs|zehntel|fortune|ios|tolerant|allegra|tymix}!oliveb!oliven!rap
devonst@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) (10/02/86)
rap@olivej.UUCP (Robert A. Pease) writes: >In article <311@isieng.UUCP> kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) writes: >>As we develop our life with God as the center, we begin >>to approach life in a different way: The way God approaches life. Now imagine >>the ideal situation where everybody reacted to life in this way, wanted the >>best for others. If everybody lived their lives in that way, I think we'd >>have a pretty good idea of what heaven is like. >> >>Kiki > >The intention is a nice one, but the idea frightens me. My first >question, of course, is who is going to decide whats best for me? If >I am to decide, then you need to know of my decision and abide by it. >If you are to decide, then I am to be bound by something that will >very likely cause me great amounts of discomfort. > I guarantee that if you were the unfortunate individual helped by the Good Samaritan you wouldn't question whether his helping you was in your best interest. >Be careful with this idea. It can be easily used to justify a >lifestyle akin to that depicted in "1984". I think what has a better >outcome is to live and let live. Its like I tell my kids, "Don't you >worry what she's doing, you take care of yourself and let her take >care of herself." >-- > Robert A. Pease I hope you never run into trouble and the only people who come by have the same attitude as you. As a matter of fact, I hope *I* never run into trouble and the only people who come by have the same attitude as you. -- Tom Albrecht
kiki@isieng.UUCP (10/02/86)
In article <50@oliveb.UUCP> rap@olivej.UUCP (Robert A. Pease) writes: >In article <311@isieng.UUCP> kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) writes: >>As we develop our life with God as the center, we begin >>to approach life in a different way: The way God approaches life. Now imagine >>the ideal situation where everybody reacted to life in this way, wanted the >>best for others. If everybody lived their lives in that way, I think we'd >>have a pretty good idea of what heaven is like. >> >>Kiki > >The intention is a nice one, but the idea frightens me. My first >question, of course, is who is going to decide whats best for me? If >I am to decide, then you need to know of my decision and abide by it. >If you are to decide, then I am to be bound by something that will >very likely cause me great amounts of discomfort. > >Be careful with this idea. It can be easily used to justify a >lifestyle akin to that depicted in "1984". I think what has a better >outcome is to live and let live. Its like I tell my kids, "Don't you >worry what she's doing, you take care of yourself and let her take >care of herself." >-- > Robert A. Pease That is exactly my point in why we should base our decisions on what God wants. Every person can make his or her decisions based on many different elements. Take the extreme example of Hitler who slaughtered the Jews because he thought he was doing the right thing. Everybody else thought he was doing the wrong thing! People make decisions based on many different factors. But they are not always the right decisions. One person's decision on what is right may be completely different to what is really right. Jesus said that He is the Truth. If Jesus is God (like he said) than He knows what is right. If we base our decisions on His Truth, then the will not fluctute with the whims of man. This does not mean that we become a monotaneous unthinking society, but that we put the Love of God as our primary goal and react to people with that Love. Kiki
larrabee@decwrl.UUCP (10/03/86)
The charter of net.women, now soc.women, specifically says that abortion is *not* to be discussed. It is to be left to net.abortion, now talk.abortion, and not touched upon in this group. I support this decree and I have been waiting for someone else to mention this to the group at large. What the hell, I may not be a net authority, but I may be able to refresh some memories. (See whatever net.announce.newusers has become if you don't believe me). -- Tracy Larrabee tracy@sushi.stanford.edu decwrl!larrabee
features@ihuxf.UUCP (aMAZon) (10/03/86)
Please note that *any** posting on the topic of feminism and abortion, or anything and abortion, belongs solely in talk.abortion. Peripheral mention in talk.religion.misc might be appropriate, but posting in soc.women is not. Please make sure to change the newsgroups line. -- aMAZon @ AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL; ihnp4!ihuxf!features *It's never too late to have a happy childhood*
matt@oddjob.UUCP (10/05/86)
In article <313@isieng.UUCP> kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) writes: > If Jesus is God (like he said) than He knows what is right. And if he isn't, then look at the pickle we're in if we stamp out all other philosophies! Just as in agriculture, we'd better keep many strains of thought alive in case some of them should prove to have hidden weaknesses later on. Matt Crawford - if it GLISTENS, gobble it!!
kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) (10/06/86)
In article <1513@oddjob.UUCP> matt@oddjob.UUCP (Matt Crawford) writes: >In article <313@isieng.UUCP> kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) writes: > >> If Jesus is God (like he said) than He knows what is right. > >And if he isn't, then look at the pickle we're in if we stamp >out all other philosophies! Just as in agriculture, we'd better >keep many strains of thought alive in case some of them should >prove to have hidden weaknesses later on. > > Matt Crawford > Yeah, but if something is true, why worry about everything that's not true? If there were a book on "Everything You Wanted to Know About Agriculture But Were Afraid to Ask" and your prime concern as you said is agriculture. Would you read a book about car maintenance or opera? Of course not, you won't find a section on agriculture in either of those books. Kiki P.S. One of my old work partners was named Matt Crawford. Do we know each other? :-)
li@uw-vlsi.UUCP (10/14/86)
In article <1513@oddjob.UUCP> matt@oddjob.UUCP (Matt Crawford) writes: >In article <313@isieng.UUCP> kiki@isieng.UUCP (Kiki Herbst) writes: > >> If Jesus is God (like he said) than He knows what is right. > >And if he isn't, then look at the pickle we're in if we stamp >out all other philosophies! Just as in agriculture, we'd better >keep many strains of thought alive in case some of them should >prove to have hidden weaknesses later on. > That was what turned me away from Christianity for SOOOoooo long (better than 21 of my years). The concept that Christ and God would encourage everyone to be the same, to smear all the varied and beautiful colors of human endeavour and thought and faith into one runny mess really repulsed me. The thought that there would only be one truth, that could actually be seen and interpreted by a failable human elected by failable humans, would be the only truth for all humans was something that I could not accept. Not on faith nor on hope. If I had accepted that as the basis of my faith it would crumble to nothing. Then one day, someone showed me Corinthians I, 12 and 13. I'm going to take lines out of them. 12.4-7 "There are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but the same Spirit gives them. There are different ways of serving, but the same Lord is served. There are different abilities to perform service, but the same God gives ability to everyone for their particular service. The Spirit's presense is shown in some way to each person for the good of all." 12.14-20 "Christ is like a single body, which has many parts; it is still one body, even though it is made up of different parts. In the same way, all of us, wheither Jews or Gentiles, whether slaves or free, have been baptized into the one body by the same Spirit, and we have all been given the one Spirit to drink. For the body itself is no made up of only one part, but of many parts. If the foot were to say, "Because I am not a hand, I don't belong to the body." that would not keep it frombeing a part of the body. And if the ear were to say, "Because I am not an eye, I don't belong to the body," that would not keep it from being a part of the body. If the whole body were just an eye, how could it hear? And if it were only an ear, how could it smell? As it is, however, God put every different part in the body just as he wanted it to be. There would not be a body if it were all only one part! As it is there are many parts but one body." We are all needed. I am a Christian, first a Catholic baptised and confirmed as a child, then, repulsing the human element, failings and bigotry of that section of that Church that I was involved with I declared myself NOT a Christian. Now, I am back. Accepted as a part that is different, yet still a PART of Christ's body. 13.8-10 "Love is eternal. There are inspired messages, but they are temporary; there are gifts of speaking in strange tongues, but they will cease, there is knowledge, but it will pass. For our gifts of knowledge and of inspired messages are only partial; but when what is perfect comes, then what is partial will disappear." The Bible is a series of "inspired messages", something that must be interpreted to adapt to present day situations, otherwise it stagnates and dies and is no longer relavent. There is a Truth that is eternal, but I do not really believe that any one person can perceive or interprete it, at least I know that I cannot, you may be gifted enough to perceive the whole, and able to judge all who might abort an innocent. All I know is what I have seen. And from that view I have seen what unwanted children go through, from seeing the terrible emotional scars that led to physical scars on one of my boyfriends, to hearing with horror the death of a sister of a friend who was an unwed mother, to reading of the terrible storys of child abuse from elementary school teachers. Every teacher of children that I have known has agreed with me on my view of the issue of abortion. And from what I have seen and experienced and been told and felt, the terrible price of a childhood unwanted is not paid by just the mother, it is also paid by the child, the father, the teachers of the child, the social workers that have to deal with child abuse, all the friends the child may have, and the lover that child may wish to love later. No, I know, not all unwanted childhoods turn into these feast of horror, but enough have that I am conviced that to make *all* abortions illegal is a Bad Thing. Mostly because anyone who can make the decision to go through the grief, risk and clinical horror of an abortion in order to get rid of a child, will NOT make a good mother at that time. I cannot condone abortion as a method of contraception, nor can I condone abortions after the first trimester. But I also cannot condemn all abortions as a crime against an innocent, because a childhood unwanted is a penalty no innocent should have to pay just to exist. I, personally, will never and have never had an abortion, I love kids too much to even think of it. However, and this is also a personal view, I cannot think that He who loved children so much could actively condone and help those that which could make their lives a living hell. Liralen Li -- "A closed mouth gathers no foot." USENET: ihnp4!akgua!sb6!fluke!uw-vlsi!li ARPA: li@vlsi.cs.washington.arpa