gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) (09/08/86)
The following is based on excerpts from a sermon, "Church and State," by Rev. Dr. D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. PART I --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: Did the founders of this nation intend it to be a secularist, neutral, humanist nation; or did they believe that this was a nation created to the glory of God and that it was to be a godly, Christian state? Evidence: * In 1606 the First Charter of Virginia was drawn up prior to the arrival of settlers from England at Jamestown, Va. in 1607. The charter, in part, declares "We greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their desires for the furtherence of so noble a work, which may, by the providence of almighty God, hereafter tend to the glory of His divine majesty, in propagating the Christian religion to such people, as yet live in darkness and miserable ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God, and may in time bring the infidels and savages, living in those parts, to human civility, and to a settled and quite government ..." * On Nov. 11, 1620, as their ship, the Mayflower, lay off the shores of Plymouth Rock, the Pilgrims joined together and signed the Mayflower Compact: "In the name of God, Amen" ... "Having undertaken for the glory of God, and advancements of the Christian faith, and honor of our kind and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the Northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic ..." Governor William Bradford described the first thing the Pilgrims did when they arrived on these shores: "Being thus arrived in good harbor and brought safe to land, they fell upon their knees and blessed the God of Heaven ..." * The Fundamental Orders of Connecticut was the first written constitution (1639) which created a government in this land: "Forasmuch as it hath pleased the Almight God by the wise disposition of His divine providence so to order and dispose of things ..." "And well knowing where a people are gathered together the word of God requires that to maintain the peace and union of such a people there should be an orderly and decent government established according to God ... to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of our Lord Jesus which we now profess, as also the discipline of the churches, which according to the truth of the said gospel is not practiced amongst us ..." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken Swanson AT&T Bell Labs ... ihnp4!vax135!gks
craig@think.COM (Craig Stanfill) (09/09/86)
I think the root of this argument lies in realizing the difference between the PEOPLE of the U.S. and the GOVERNMENT of the U.S. 1. The People. The original settlers of many of the colonies, including Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Pennsylvania, came to the new world to escape religous persecution (i.e. the established church). The settlers of other colonies, such as Virginia, came to the new world for economic opportunity, and brought their established church (the Church of England) with them. Since then, people have come to America either to escape persecution in their homeland (e.g. the Jews from eastern Europe, the middle class from Viet Nam), or to escape economic hardship at home (e.g. the Irish fleeing famine or the Mexicans fleeing poverty), or to escape tyranny (e.g. Soviet and eastern block defectors today). Without denying that Americans are, on the whole, a profoundly religous people, or denying the importance of religion in the founding some of the original colonies, people have not, on the whole, come to America because it is ``a Christian Country,'' but because it was (and often still is) the only place they could run to. 2. The Government. When the U.S. Government was founded, Europe still had vivid memories of bitter religous wars and of religous persecution. One of the results of this was `The Enlightenment,' which took many (but not all) aspects of Christian morality and packaged them in a framework of reason. The basic idea was that reason alone was sufficient for the establishment of a just government. This led to the then-radical concept of separation of Church and State. The hope was that, if people could not agree on God (which they still cannot), they could at least agree on some basic rights that men had, and on what steps were necessary to guarantee those rights. One problem today (as always) is that this concensus on the rights of man and on the role of government is not universal. In the case of abortion, we see a case where a fundamental right is in dispute: some think a fetus has a fundamental right to life, others think not. In the case of poronography, there are those who think the government should legislate morality, rather then defend individual rights. In the case of school prayer, some attack the very separation of Church and State. Some individuals involved in the above issues attempt to justify their positions by reference to the ``Christian Heritage'' of the United States. They identify one position as being in concord with Christianity (as they see it), they claim that the U.S. is a Christian Nation, and therefore the Christian position ought to be the position of the government. And this is where the issue of our Christian Heritage becomes important. While most Americans (like most people of European ancestry) are Christian, most immigrants did NOT come here to establish a Christian commune, and the government was founded on strictly secular principles.
speter@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Peter Osgood) (09/09/86)
Those who founded Virginia were more interested in a money making trading company than a religous colony. Those who landed at Plymouth, the Pilgrims, 51 of them, were Separatists who were fleeing the oppressive English crown. Rhode Island and Connecticut were both founded by disenchanted Puritans who started the Quaker religon. Maryland was settled by Roman Catholics. New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania was settle by Lutherans. Georgia and Massachusetts started out as trading companies. When it came time to write the Constitution in 1789, it was eminently obvious to Jefferson et. al. that we needed a nation which held to no specific religon. It was painfully obvious to them that any country which embraced a religon of state was doomed to becoming oppressive. Since life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was their goal they endevored the separation of church and state. We may have been founded in Christianity, but were have a Buddist, Jewish, Moslem, heritage as well as others. ---peter osgood---
mrh@cybvax0.UUCP (Mike Huybensz) (09/09/86)
In article <1583@vax135.UUCP> gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) writes: > The following is based on excerpts from a sermon, "Church and State," by > Rev. Dr. D. James Kennedy... > > Question: Did the founders of this nation intend it to be a secularist, > neutral, humanist nation; or did they believe that this was > a nation created to the glory of God and that it was to be a > godly, Christian state? Depends who you considered the founders of the nation. The so-called evidence considers only early settlers who moved here, but did not found our nation. And should you consider the leaders, or the masses as founders? If you consider the signers of the Declaration of Independance and the ratifiers of the Constitution to be the founders, then you can clearly state that the founders were NOT united in what they intended our nation to be in many ways: religious, social, economic, etc. On the other hand, it's a moot question. There's no reason why we should be entirely agreed with the founders of our nation: indeed they might have changed their minds on a variety of issues if they had survived into our own times. Such as slavery, interference in foreign affairs, religion (their Christian denominations are mostly tiny minorities now), taxation, etc. Government is a dynamic system that changes with the times. We cannot entirely rely on a static idea of what was intended in the past for conditions that have since changed. The whole idea of what the founding fathers thought is stupid without comparisons of the contexts then and now. -- Mike Huybensz ...decvax!genrad!mit-eddie!cybvax0!mrh
wfi@rti-sel.UUCP (William Ingogly) (09/10/86)
In article <1583@vax135.UUCP> gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) writes: >Question: Did the founders of this nation intend it to be a secularist, > neutral, humanist nation; ... > >Evidence: > * In 1606 the First Charter of Virginia was drawn up ... > > * On Nov. 11, 1620, as their ship, the Mayflower, ... > > * The Fundamental Orders of Connecticut was the first written > constitution (1639) ... Uh ... I always thought this nation was founded in the 18th century, Ken, not the 17th. What do events and documents from 1606, 1620, and 1639 (a period in which Americans pledged allegiance to the good old King of E. and burned witches and Friends, among other things :-) have to do with the Federalist papers, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, or Jefferson's/Madison's/Hamilton's/ Adams'/etc.'s (people I always thought of as the "founders of this nation") thoughts on what this nation should be? -- Cheers, Bill Ingogly
za56@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (Brian McNeill) (09/10/86)
In article <1583@vax135.UUCP> gks@vax135.UUCP (Ken Swanson) writes: >The following is based on excerpts from a sermon, "Church and State," by >Question: Did the founders of this nation intend it to be a secularist, > neutral, humanist nation; or did they believe that this was > a nation created to the glory of God and that it was to be a > godly, Christian state? > >[Constitution of Virginia, 1620] >[Plymouth Rock, 1600s] >[Fundamental orders of Connecticut, 1639] These were not of our country. This was before the revolution, and listed were colonies of the British empire. In the constitution, it expressly states that there shall be a separation between church and state, and that it shall remain unbroken. Let me point out something you might have missed...a large portion of the Founding Fathers were atheists, agnostics, or deistic freethinkers, including such people as Thomas Jefferson (agnostic), Thomas Paine (atheist), Ben Franklin (freethinker), John Adams (atheist), etc. And these were the people who founded our country, not the Puritans and whatnot that you quoted. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ken Swanson >AT&T Bell Labs >... ihnp4!vax135!gks /-----------------------------------------------------------\ | Brian McNeill ARPA : za56@sdcc3.ucsd.edu | | HASA "A" Division UUCP : ...!sdcsvax!sdcc6!sdcc3!za56 | |-----------------------------------------------------------| ! "This would be the best of all possible worlds if there ! ! were no religion in it," -- John Adams, 2nd US President ! \-----------------------------------------------------------/