za56@sdcc3.ucsd.EDU (Brian McNeill) (09/13/86)
In article <300c5aae.33cd@apollo.uucp> maggie@apollo.uucp (Margaret Daniel) writes: > > >For example...Dr. Simon Greenleaf, professor of law at Harvard University, >recognized by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court to be the greatest >authority on legal evidence who has ever lived, did a detailed study of the >findings relating to the resurrection of Christ. He concluded that, in any >unbiased courtroom in the world, the evidence would fully establish the fact >that Jesus was resurrected from the dead. Some of the hard facts that led to >his conclusion: > > -- the empty tomb > -- the 500 people who saw the resurrected Christ > -- the radically-changed lives of the disciples > -- the disciples' willingness to die for their faith > -- the birth and growth of the church > >There is simply no fully satisfying, truly adequate explanation for these >known facts except the resurrection. Of course, you may attempt to supply >other explanations for the evidences, but they would probably weaken in the >light of Greenleaf's comprehensive study. So convincing were the findings >that one historian who reviewed the professor's work was quoted as saying >this: "Although I am not a Christian, I cannot deny the evidence for the >resurrection." If you're not already familiar with this study, I'm sure you >can find a detailed analysis of it in any large library containing books on >religion/anthropology. Of course...all this is circular reasoning, as you are using evidence in the Bible to support the Bible...the only place Jesus figures in any importance during that century...outside the Bible, there is NO evidence that there (1) was an empty tomb (2) that 500 people saw the Resurrected (3) that the lives of the disciples were any different before or after ... (4) and (5) are characteristics of any growing church supported by fanatics...most fanatics are willing to die, and most are willing to spend a major part of their time soliciting converts, of which there will always be plenty of (humankind is (usually) dissatisfied with its position, and is usually willing to do/try many things to change it) Heck, Buddhism grew as fast as Xianity, and same with Shinto, Hindu, and a hell of a lot of other religions...nope, I see nothing new here, except yet another circular argument! > >In my mind, the TRUE Christian plants the seeds of love and acceptance >in others -- and lets God take care of the rest. We should not be overly- >critical of each others ideas, because this shows a lack of respect for >the persons involved. As a true Christian, I feel that I must learn to >love others regardless of their beliefs. In fact, I must accept each one as >a personality created in God's image and for whom Christ died. I can't think >of a single instance in the Bible where Jesus forced himself on anyone. >Furthermore, He never preached down to anyone or belittled their personhood. >He was firm and frank, and He did it all in humility and love... we could >learn *alot* from His actions if we'd just take that direction. > Au contraire! Jesus used fear as a tool to gain his way...which I would define as forcing himself on me...he threatened nonbelievers with eternal hellfire (and no, its not meant to be metaphorical...read your own Bible, please)...this is a major flaw in his character, that, as God, he could sentence anyone to this kind of eternal torture! And don't give me any CR*P about "you do it to yourself"...if you saw an act of brutality being done, and had the ability to stop it (which an omnipotent God would certainly have) would not your own code of morals require you to stop it, as an Xian...than how can you believe your God would not do the same? Im sorry, but I really don't see anything new in Jesus' message (it was all said 500 years before him by Buddha, and probably before Buddha by someone else), nor do I see anything Godlike about his characteristics, and to accept the word of a book that is based on the ASSUMPTION that he is God seems to be a little suspect reasoning! >Maggie >-- > Chelmsford, Mass. {yale,uw-beaver,decvax!wanginst}!apollo!maggie /-----------------------------------------------------------\ | Brian McNeill ARPA : za56@sdcc3.ucsd.edu | | HASA "A" Division UUCP : ...!sdcsvax!sdcc6!sdcc3!za56 | |-----------------------------------------------------------| | Disclaimer: I hereby disclaim all knowledge of opinions, | | expressed or implied, including this disclaimer. | | Flames ---> /dev/null | \-----------------------------------------------------------/
maggie@apollo.uucp (Margaret Daniel) (09/15/86)
Awhile back, I made the following statement >> In my mind, the TRUE Christian plants the seeds of love and acceptance >> in others -- and lets God take care of the rest. We should not be overly- >> critical of each others ideas, because this shows a lack of respect for >> the persons involved. As a true Christian, I feel that I must learn to >> love others regardless of their beliefs. In fact, I must accept each one as >> a personality created in God's image and for whom Christ died. I can't >> think of a single instance in the Bible where Jesus forced himself on >> anyone. Furthermore, He never preached down to anyone or belittled their >> personhood. He was firm and frank, and He did it all in humility and love... >> we could > learn *alot* from His actions if we'd just take that direction. to which Harry Plantinga (planting@colby.wisc.edu) replied: > I certainly agree that we must accept each person as one created in > God's image and for whom Christ died. True, too, that Jesus didn't > force himself on people. But neither did he suggest that they might > consider his ideas, even though theirs had merit too. He didn't pull > punches in his criticism of them. Consider for example his criticism > of the pharisees! These were the "most religous" jews of the day! > If you read about Paul's preaching, you would not be tempted to call > him non-critical, a peace maker, or one who accepts other people's > ideas as a sign of respect to them. Neither did he leave "converting" > people to God. He boldly preached and converted people. Could your > reluctance to do the same be a way to relieve yourself of a > threatening job? This is most thought-provoking. It's true what Harry says about Paul and his ministry. He was bold, assertive, and dedicated -- a man whom I greatly admire (in spite of his slightly :-) anti-female opinions). I know that I have alot of spiritual growth ahead, but I think each one of us has a unique gift of witness that is ours alone. Though I deeply respect the man that St. Paul was, my way of "ministering" to others is not quite so bold. This does not mean that my faith is weaker, only that I must use my gift as it is. To better explain why I choose a message of love and acceptance over more "forceful" means of helping people find God, you should know that it was through these same things that I myself found Him. Though I was baptized at an early age and attended church off and on throughout my life, it was only two years ago that the message of God's love really got through to me. All I had ever experienced before was ritual and dogma -- a *meaningless* spiritual existence to say the least. This disintigrated into agnosticism, and then a total rejection of God. Only through the love, patience, and understanding of others who cared for me did I finally face the reality of Jesus Christ. These people I refer to did not put me down for my lack of faith; they did not threaten me, patronize me, or belittle me for my lack of direction toward God. Instead, they told me that I was created in the image of the Lord, who loves me. They told me about how Jesus died so that I might know forgiveness and mercy. I remember thinking "Surely he didn't do it FOR ME!", but then they said yes, *for me*. No matter what my past had been (yes, even my rejection of Him!) -- all forgiven. The price was already paid. NOBODY had ever talked to me about Jesus like that! I never really knew that God was alive and with us always -- I'd never before considered it, as I thought of Him as detached, with better things to do than to be my friend. As my heart softened, I realized that I would never get anywhere without first seeking forgiveness and accepting it as my own. The point I'm trying to make is this. It is not so much *how* we lead others to Christ, but the fact that we *do* ultimately share that Good News with them. This, of course, means that we must live our lives in a way that does not contrast with the words we speak (i.e., no hypocrisy, please!) So, to Harry's question >> Could your reluctance to do the same (boldly preaching and converting >> people as Paul did) be a way to relieve yourself of a threatening job? I would have to say no. I'm willing to suffer the criticism and spite of others for the sake of my faith, but I will continue to be a worker for the Kingdom who still believes that much-quoted verse from 1 Corinthians: "Love never fails." (LIVE IT) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Maggie Daniel Apollo Computer Chelmsford, Mass. {yale,uw-beaver,decvax!wanginst}!apollo!maggie 617-256-6600 (x7820) -------------------------------------------------------------------