davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) (09/29/86)
In article <2584@watdcsu.UUCP> magore@watdcsu.UUCP (M.A.Gore - ICR) writes: > >>> "There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot >>> face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths." > >Main point of this posting. What do non-Christians think that >Christians believe in God for?: > > 1) 'Just because the Bible tells us.' > 2) 'Because we need a crutch to hold are lives up.' > 3) 'Our parents told us.' > 4) 'Not very bright. No science in our education.' > 5) 'There is a sucker born every minute.' > > These are just a few of the myths that non-Christians >have about Christians. But I contend *if* you believe these or >statements like these that you have a 'comfortable myth' and a >crutch that will keep you from understanding Christians. But the above myths DO hold true for a great many believers. Myth 1) Obviously true. How many times on this very newsgroup have you seen "the Bible is God's word and says (blah blah)". QED. Myth 2) More complicated but face it, we all have some kind of belief system. Many Christians would 'feel lost' without their religion, and they will readily admit it. Myth 3) True for many who simply grew up being told what to believe. The irony is that most Christians if they had been born in Iran would be Islamic. Myth 4) My parents have no idea what psychology is all about. They couldn't begin to take apart their belief system and see why they believe the way they do. In fact, THEY WOULD TAKE THIS TO BE A THREAT, since they feel their religion is simply a given. My father was told by my grandmother that horse hairs in mud puddles become insects. And he says he doesn't know if that's true but his mother never lied to him and so it may be. Myth 5) Well, sucker is too strong a word. I would prefer saying that it's the nature of a human being to hang on to any belief system which seems to fulfill deep psychological needs. In my opinion what most people miss in the entire discussion of religion is that there is a 'feel good' effect that one gets from following religious tenents. We all know we have flaws. And so being told that if we do X then all of our guilt will be forgiven by the creater of the universe makes a powerful draw. Of course X in the Christian religion is "ask God for forgiveness of your sins." This is potent psychological stuff. The trouble is, that in almost every case (and I'll detail the exception later) you have to believe in this 'world view' before the fix can take hold. You have to believe that there is a God who is vastly superiour to yourself who wants you to come clean (i.e. 'get saved') and who has the power to forgive. You have to believe that you are a bad person who needs 'redemption'. The stronger you believe this the more powerful will be your 'conversion' experience. As a kid our church had 'alter calls' where at the end of the service people would be asked to go up front and 'give their lives to the Lord' to 'get saved'. I saw some people go through an apparent transformation in their lives. But it varied from individual to individual. Some people had to go back to the alter time after time before they would 'get saved'. They were told that they just weren't being honest with God, that they were holding something back and just need to come totally clean and beg forgiveness. Sometimes a person would give up trying to 'get saved' and never come back. It wasn't until I grew older and learned how to analyze things deeper that I began to realize what was going on. First, there was the setting up of the world view during the preaching (the guilt trip, the all-powerful God who wants to forgive, 'fallen' man, etc.) Then the climax where the 'alter call' was given to allow individuals to 'have your sins washed away.' Once I saw what was going on I realized the guilt trip was for the most part artificial and slowly but surely Christianity lost it's hold on me. For then I knew that I was a decent person who could love others whether I prayed to God or not. I found that I could have this 'spritual high' feeling without attending church or thinking of God. But it does have something to do with loving oneself and the beings around you. Now to the rare case where someone who supposedly hasn't been fed on the Christianity 'world view' still has this 'conversion' experience. There was one thing common among all the cases I knew of and that was this-there had been a tremendous amount of 'evil' done by such persons. Thus, they have a much greater pressure of guilt to be relieved even though it may have been hidden deeply under the surface. Examples here are Saul of Tarsis, or a hardened criminal. (This is simplified of course. For even a person just stealing a newspaper may be of such a disposition that they feel heavy guilt over it-and thus they too would be eligible for this type of conversion.) Like a newly hatched duck which follows that which it first sees, I followed the 'world view' of my religion as to the why and wherefore of 'religious highs'. For simple people, like my parents, who have not learned how to analyze things deeply there is no other explanation (nor need of one.) Therefore, the church dogma wins out over any psychological understanding since it is there first and and the latter is not accessible by many. I propose the following belief profile is required of Christians for their religion to have any meaning: 1) You must believe you are inherently bad and have a certain degree of gu
magore@watdcsu.UUCP (10/02/86)
In article <782@oakhill.UUCP> davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) writes: [munch....] me>> Acts 13:41 (NIV) "Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for me>>I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, me>>even if someone told you." > >What nasty words. Are you proud that these are in the Bible? > > -- Dave Trissel {ihnp4,siesmo}!ut-sally!im4u!oakhill!davet Yes I am 'proud'. The *warning* is true if it applies.... You could say to someone not to touch hot stove and they could just scoff at the idea.... which is a sad thing...This stove idea is just a parable of a much deeper concern and warning that arrogance can blind. -It applies to all people... # Mike Gore # Institute for Computer Research. # These ideas/concepts do not imply views held by the University of Waterloo.
gnome@oliveb.UUCP (10/03/86)
> In article <782@oakhill.UUCP> davet@oakhill.UUCP (Dave Trissel) writes: > [munch....] > me>> Acts 13:41 (NIV) "Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for > me>>I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, > me>>even if someone told you." >> >>What nasty words. Are you proud that these are in the Bible? >> >> -- Dave Trissel {ihnp4,siesmo}!ut-sally!im4u!oakhill!davet > > Yes I am 'proud'. The *warning* is true if it applies.... > You could say to someone not to touch hot stove and they could just scoff > at the idea.... which is a sad thing...This stove idea is just a parable > of a much deeper concern and warning that arrogance can blind. > -It applies to all people... > > # Mike Gore Isn't it more like "Don't THINK about touching that hot stove or you will melt into a puddle of rotting flesh!!! Yeah-uh, verily! He who laughs at my words will also melt! For my stove is the stove of GOD!" It doesn't matter that \I/ can touch a hot stove without getting burned! I use the knobs, you see... Even your analogy shows the kind of black & white world that people use for interpreting the Bible. It has its good parts and bad parts -- much like the San Jose yellow pages. I once asked a Jehova's Witness friend why their literature has so many threats intertwined in the text. I said "All of this amounts to little more than extortion. Join us, do what we say, and you can avoid this horrifyingly violent death! (quote from the Bibble about tongues rotting in people's mouths and flesh rotting on their bones while they walk...) 'Sounds a lot like a threat to me..." He said "But it's not extortion if it's true!" "Just because you rely on your god to DO the destroying doesn't excuse your exploiting the threat..." Anyway, I've found that, like retail sales, the more pressure they use on you to sell something, the less of a deal it is... Religion appears to be similar -- the more forceful the religion, the less evolved and enlightened. Step right up! Git yer back-stage pass to heaven! Gary HASA member Heathen division "Someday, I'd like to write-down all of mankind's misunderstandings about the world around them, put it all in a hardcover book, and leave copies of it in every hotel room -- Oh! Somebody beat me to it!"