tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (09/15/86)
It occurs to me that some people probably wrote off my recent allusion to
corpse worship by Christians as yet more unintelligible and false Maronic
hyperbole. In fact, what I'm referring to is well-documented historical
fact, and its persistence to the modern day can be easily verified by anyone
familiar with European (and especially Italian) Catholicism. Fragments of
corpses line the walls of St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, for example.
Virtually all early Christian houses of worship, which the Emperor Julian
always referred to as "charnel houses", contained fragments of corpses which
were purported to have miraculous powers. Americans and Protestants have
fortunately avoided this appalling form of worship, but it would be an error
to forget that for centuries the only Christians were devout corpse
worshippers and that Christian churches displayed aged body parts as sacred
and even divinely blessed.
--
Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot and Self-Assigner of Pretentious Titles
{ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp)
hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa)
"Mister Spock succumbs to a powerful mating urge and nearly kills Captain
Kirk." TV Guide, quoted in National Lampoon's True Factssxnahm@ubvax.UUCP (09/16/86)
In article <1093@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes: >It occurs to me that some people probably wrote off my recent allusion to >corpse worship by Christians as yet more unintelligible and false Maronic >hyperbole. In fact, what I'm referring to is well-documented historical >fact, and its persistence to the modern day can be easily verified by anyone >familiar with European (and especially Italian) Catholicism. I was raised Catholic, and taught that the "relics" of the saints were a sacred tie to God. Each Catholic altar was supposed to have an altar stone that contained a relic. This usually was a miniscule fragment of the remains of some saint or holy object. This never seemed too morbid to me; other cultures treat the physical remains of ancestors with similar ceremony. And after all, they were tiny fragments encased in stone in the altar; this was reasonably respectful, though I suppose the poor saint's fragments might be scattered amongst many churches. When I was in Europe in 1978, I visited a Catholic church in Germany (Munich, I think). I was astounded to see what has to be the most gruesome relic on display there. Encased in a 4x3x2 foot glass box was the full skeleton of some martyr. The skeleton was dressed in a robe, with a crown and sceptor. The eyes were encrusted with jewels. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. When I now look at the photo I took of it, I still can't believe it. -- Steve Nahm UUCP route: {amd|cae780}!ubvax!sxnahm sxnahm@ubvax.UUCP Internet address: amd!ubvax!sxnahm@decwrl.DEC.COM
bader@spice.cs.cmu.edu (Miles Bader) (09/20/86)
What's wrong with worshipping corpses?
credmond@watmath.UUCP (Chris Redmond) (09/22/86)
In article <544@ubvax.UUCP> sxnahm@ubvax.UUCP (Stephen Nahm) writes: > >When I was in Europe in 1978, I visited a Catholic church in Germany >(Munich, I think). I was astounded to see what has to be the most gruesome >relic on display there. Encased in a 4x3x2 foot glass box was the full >skeleton of some martyr. The skeleton was dressed in a robe, with a crown >and sceptor. The eyes were encrusted with jewels. I couldn't believe what >I was seeing. When I now look at the photo I took of it, I still can't >believe it. >-- If you want gruesome, I draw to your attention the remains of St. John Southworth, a Roman Catholic bishop who was hanged, drawn and quartered during the reign of Elizabeth I (one of the less tolerant periods in English history). His body was subsequently sewn back together and silver plated, and is on display in a glass case in a church in London -- can't remember whether it is the Brompton Oratory or Westminster Cathedral. Perhaps this is a good time to point out, in case anybody was in doubt, that God loves even those who have very bad taste.
speter@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Peter Osgood) (09/23/86)
Let us get one thing very straight, we Catholics worship one person and one person *only*, God. We pray to Mary and the Saints to intervene for our causes. It is true that those who went before us buried Popes, especially, in the Vatican, St. Peter's, and other places. HOWEVER, by and large, the practice of worshipping these "corpses" is long since past, it is history. Finally, this practice is/was not limited to us, in fact, in Damascus in the the central Mosque, which I visited, there is a crypt where the head of John the Baptist is purported to rest. This, surprise surprise all you crusaders, is the second holiest place in Islam and John the Baptist one of their holiest people. They, Moslems, still go to that crypt to worship. This is the only case of "corpse worship" that I have *ever* witnessed. ---peter osgood--
tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) (09/24/86)
In article <1190@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU> speter@athena.mit.edu (Peter Osgood) writes: >It is true that those who went before us buried Popes, especially, >in the Vatican, St. Peter's, and other places. HOWEVER, by and >large, the practice of worshipping these "corpses" is long since >past, it is history. > > ---peter osgood-- Well, Peter, I can only assume that you haven't been to the center of your religion, St. Peter's. Corpse fragments are still proudly and openly displayed there. Many European churches have treasyured relics with purported miraculous powers. Remind me to tell you the story of "DON'T KISS THE FEET!" sometime.... Your statement also misses the point - the corpses in question were NOT buried, but torn apart and saved by various individuals and churches, often in prominent places. -- Tim Maroney, Electronic Village Idiot {ihnp4,sun,well,ptsfa,lll-crg,frog}!hoptoad!tim (uucp) hoptoad!tim@lll-crg (arpa) Copy protection violates the basic principle of due process: Every human is presumed innocent until proven to be guilty.
abdali@tekchips.UUCP (Kamal Abdali) (09/27/86)
------------------------------------------------ In article <1190@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU>, speter@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Peter Osgood) writes: > Let us get one thing very straight, we Catholics worship one > person and one person *only*, God. > > We pray to Mary and the Saints to intervene for our causes. > > Finally, this practice is/was not limited to us, in fact, in > Damascus in the the central Mosque, which I visited, there is > a crypt where the head of John the Baptist is purported to rest. > This, surprise surprise all you crusaders, is the second holiest > place in Islam and John the Baptist one of their holiest people. > They, Moslems, still go to that crypt to worship. This is the > only case of "corpse worship" that I have *ever* witnessed. > > ---peter osgood-- 1. According to the Muslim consensus, the holiest sites in Islam are the Sacred Mosque at Mecca, the Prophet's Mosque at Medina, and the Aqsa Mosque at Jerusalem, in that order. The Omayyad Mosque at Damascus is just as sacred as any other mosque, no more and no less. 2. There are special prayers to be offered at graves, but they are addressed to God, not to the buried. These prayers should not be construed as corpse worship. 3. The excessive devotional behavior of the kind that you witnessed at the grave of John the Baptist does take place at many shrines, and is even directed towards persons much less holy than John (who is considered a "prophet" in Islam). But the vast majority of Muslims condemns such behavior strongly. The puritans consider as outright un-Islamic any display of devotion that has the faintest semblance of worship of any one but God. In the Prophet's Mosque at Medina, guards are stationed to stop people from clinging to or kissing the fence around the Prophet Muhammad's Tomb.
speter@mit-trillian.MIT.EDU (Peter Osgood) (09/29/86)
In article <3037@sdcrdcf.UUCP> alan@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Alan Algustyniak) writes: > >Interesting. How do you square that with the Catholic dogma that there >are THREE persons in God? > > Al Algustyniak > >Praying is what i'm doing when i don't know what i'm doing. Actually, we believe that their are three beings in one, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. How that happens to be is one of the wonderful mysteries of God. It is not necessary that we can comprehend infinity to give it definition, so too for God and the Trinity. Moses in the Old Testament and John in the New Testament attest to the extreme difficulty they had at looking upon the face of God. This is where true faith comes in, you haven't seen it and would be very hard pressed to prove God's/Jesus's existance by normal physical means. Your mind says "no" but your heart says "yes, absolutely." In reality, praying is a conversation with God, so see, you do believe. ---peter osgood---
tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) (10/03/86)
speter@athena.mit.edu (Peter Osgood) writes: > >It is true that those who went before us buried Popes, especially, >in the Vatican, St. Peter's, and other places. HOWEVER, by and >large, the practice of worshipping these "corpses" is long since >past, it is history. > What is the justification for stopping the worship of these "corpses"? The people who did so were closer in time to the founding of the Church, so it seems that they would be more likely to know how people were intended to worship. -- member, all HASA divisions POELOD ECBOMB -------------- ^-- Secret Satanic Message Tim Smith USENET: sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim Compuserve: 72257,3706 Delphi or GEnie: mnementh