magore@watdcsu.UUCP (M.A.Gore - ICR) (10/03/86)
This started as a mail message exchange. The person I was talking with *could* be just about anyone. He raised some GOOD points... As for now I will leave names out. So I will use 'him' and 'me' for the initial exchange. 'him.r' as a reply etc... him> I don't wish to debate this subject at length, because it's a mistake to him> assume "Christians" represents a monolithic belief structure. But "(1)" him> is a fairly reasonable conclusion to draw about those people who him> have bumper stickers on their cars that say "The Bible says it, I him> believe it, and that settles it." If you want the image of Christianity him> among non-Christians to be different, I suggest you take the issue him> up with the people who are selling and buying the bumper stickers. I'll take the issues up here to cover the (perception side of this). me> Say you saw: "I believe 2 + 2 = 4 because my math book me> tells me so and that is that!" r.him> This is interesting. If I saw a bumper sticker like that, r.him> (and the Bible sticker didn't exist, so that I can discount r.him> the possibility of ironic parody, etc.) I would indeed r.him> assume that the driver of that vehicle had a very peculiar r.him> idea about how mathematics works. If I saw a WHOLE LOT of r.him> people with a bumper sticker like that, I'd indeed begin to r.him> express serious concern about the current state of r.him> mathematics education. If I were a Christian and saw a r.him> whole lot of those Bible stickers, I would similarly be r.him> worried that too many people were getting an oversimplified r.him> view of their own religion. Many people believe 2 + 2 = 4 because it is near enough for the *average person* to be 'first principles'. Most people (read public) do NOT chose to find out the DEEP reasons of mathematics. So mathematician might worry about such bumper stickers (2 + 2 = 4) whereas most average people would not. So why the surprise when a Christian has such a bumper sticker? Many birds do not know WHY they fly but they do fly! Most fields -be it politics or what ever- have 'bumper stickers' (in a way ) on their ideas. The Christian 'body' IS diverse (it's even Biblical). So with politics people have differing views but *can* believe in democracy. (An aside: You can look at what I am saying here in more then a few ways because I am using simple arguments to point to an ***IDEA*** just like some Christian parables teach an *IDEA*. -looking at it certain ways you could say the analogies have holes in them ...in doing so you could miss the/my *point* - not that you do....It's just a different way of expression.) Many Christians say there is a 'way' to test their ideas. But many have NOT the same way to express them -as it is an 'experience'-. Look at Christians somewhat like politics. Most people argue the persons 'experience' - say that experience is like 'democracy'. One could then argue the person's particular politics and NEVER talk of democracy. Also as in politics there is anger because the person -"does not think the way you do problem"-...Democracy no more causes one-ness of political views then God causes one-ness of Christian views points(read as free will)... (But I just state this comparison as one speaking from the 'inside'). I can say that I am willing to face ANY facts concerning the validity of my faith -EVEN that I could be deceived-. -But- I don't talk about it *all* the time (read the net is/was a Christian net.religion.christian). But if what I experience is TRUE then it does not follow that those that appear closed minded -are- <I was a non-Christian and voiced the same negative views here on the net for similar reasons.> - I found that is fear that they were deceived, self deceived- I found that most of the issues were 'political' (read bias and worse) -*these 'political issues* were getting in my way of 'seeing' the (democracy if you like) of what they believed. Once I saw the 'democracy' (as a parable) I found it could put the 'puzzle' together. We have 'fence sitters' ,'lefts' and 'rights' *and* the non-Christians' perceptions (and *ours* as well of course). Yet many people expect answers to be set out in text books with the "good guy's" in 'white hats' -so to speak-. You should ask (often) why 1 Billion (if you can believe postings!) Christians, WHY they believe in God?. - 'politics' need not have anything to do with it ->*IF* you ask many Christians "if they 'experience' God to help justify their faith"... You might be surprised!. Also most Christians don't *need* Christianity <rather you could say from 'experience' they can't avoid it>... (True it DOES fill needs but so does politics! but wrong question...) Lastly you would have to get in most of our minds and 'see' *if* God revealed himself in some way (as the Bible outlines). Else all this is just speculation right?. The very fact of the *kind* of experience makes the testing very hard to do ultimately -so we have a catch 22-. The ONLY way to find out is to *test* the *method*. Which as I see it (and the Bible states) -is what God had in mind-.... <- Why ? not even we totally KNOW with a capital K. But you might ask a politician why he does things the way he does -and you *might* never really *KNOW*-.... So life is complex - It's sad that facts in nature *might* look like 'cop-outs' by design/(or evolution :-). We all see the same puzzle but put together a differing picture... We don't *all* trash evidence any more than an *average* person (it just seems that way because of politics).... (((Saying that I am an exception well not help you here. I've taken the *time* to find out, people who take that time are not exceptions. You could say we reflect the same intellect cross section *as the average public* then you *might not* be far from the truth...Just take those 'bad' stories you hear about us with a 'grain of salt' - Who knows YOU *may* have encouraged one of those 'stories' and many others (from everyone else) are catching up!))) -Remember *if* you divide us up too far in generalizations you *could* miss the 'forest for the trees (read politics as above)' I have *yet* to see a non-Christian get the idea of 'faith' and 'beleive'- seems if you get the words wrong your answers *may* be wrong as well.... ...Just want to keep everyone one their toes.... Thankyou for your time... # Mike Gore # Institute for Computer Research. # These ideas/concepts do not imply views held by the University of Waterloo.